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	<title>Comments on: National Scores Versus ACSI Scores</title>
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	<description>Reform Education because Education Mattes</description>
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		<title>By: site admin</title>
		<link>http://educationmatters.us/2006/06/21/national-scores-versus-acsi-scores/#comment-857</link>
		<dc:creator>site admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jul 2006 01:15:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationmatters.us/?p=576#comment-857</guid>
		<description>Julie and others,

I have finally had a chance to look at the study you have pointed out.  I have a few more pages to go, but here is what I have seen so far.

First, let&#039;s look at &lt;a href=&quot;http://ncspe.org/ncspe-team.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;who this group is&lt;/a&gt;.

Henry M. Levin, Director
Professor Levin is the William Heard Kilpatrick Professor of Economics and Education at &lt;b&gt;Teachers College, Columbia University&lt;/b&gt;, and the David Jacks Professor Emeritus of Higher Education and Economics at Stanford University.

Clive Belfield, Associate Director
Dr. Belfield is an economist working on education policy, the efficiency of education enterprises and the cost-effectiveness of education. He has undertaken research for the British Government, the European Parliament, and the World Bank.

Chad d&#039; Entremont, Assistant Director, Dissemination
Mr. d&#039;Entremont is a doctoral candidate in Politics and Education at &lt;b&gt;Teachers College&lt;/b&gt;.  His primary interest is how ideology informs debates centered on school choice and privatization.

Casandra Gomez Arnon, Project Coordinator
Ms. Arnon has professional experience in higher education administration and the non-profit sector. She has a Masters degree in Art and Art Education from &lt;b&gt;Teachers College&lt;/b&gt;.

Greg Elaqua, Research Assistant
Mr. Elacqua will begin his doctoral studies in the Comparative and International Education Program at &lt;b&gt;Teachers College&lt;/b&gt; in the Fall of 2006.

Brian Gabele, Research Assistant
Mr. Gabele is a doctoral candidate in the Economics of Education Program at &lt;b&gt;Teachers College&lt;/b&gt;.

Heather Schwartz, Iscol Research Fellow for Educational Equity and Policy
Ms. Schwartz is an EdD student in Leadership, Policy and Politics at &lt;b&gt;Teachers College&lt;/b&gt;, supported by the Iscol Research Fellowship. She is interested in the connections between schools and neighborhoods.

Munyi Shea , Staff Associate
Ms. Shea supports the administration of the Center. She is a doctoral candidate in the Department of Counseling and Clinical Psychology at &lt;b&gt;Teachers College&lt;/b&gt;.

Jessica Simon, Research Assistant
Ms. Simon is a doctoral candidate in Economics of Education at &lt;b&gt;Teachers College&lt;/b&gt;.

Elisabeth Thurston, Research Assistant
Ms. Thurston is a doctoral candidate in Politics and Education at &lt;b&gt;Teachers College&lt;/b&gt;.

Katy Bulkley, Faculty Associate
Professor, Montclair State University

Jeff Henig, Faculty Associate
Professor of Political Science and Education, &lt;b&gt;Teachers College&lt;/b&gt;.

Luis Huerta, Faculty Associate
Professor of Education, &lt;b&gt;Teachers College&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b&gt;.

Amy Stuart Wells, Faculty Associate
Professor of Sociology and Education, &lt;/b&gt;&lt;b&gt;Teachers College&lt;/b&gt;.

You&#039;ll notice a common thread.  Most of them work at Teachers College.  This fact alone makes the their claim of being non-partisan suspect.

Second, let&#039;s look at the study itself.

From page 5 - &quot;Sample sizes for some private school types were relatively small (ranging from 78-224 schools), and reduced slightly further in the full HLM models (57-203 schools). The participation rate for 4th grade conservative Christian schools, for 8th-grade charter schools, and for &quot;other private&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julie and others,</p>
<p>I have finally had a chance to look at the study you have pointed out.  I have a few more pages to go, but here is what I have seen so far.</p>
<p>First, let&#8217;s look at <a href="http://ncspe.org/ncspe-team.php" rel="nofollow">who this group is</a>.</p>
<p>Henry M. Levin, Director<br />
Professor Levin is the William Heard Kilpatrick Professor of Economics and Education at <b>Teachers College, Columbia University</b>, and the David Jacks Professor Emeritus of Higher Education and Economics at Stanford University.</p>
<p>Clive Belfield, Associate Director<br />
Dr. Belfield is an economist working on education policy, the efficiency of education enterprises and the cost-effectiveness of education. He has undertaken research for the British Government, the European Parliament, and the World Bank.</p>
<p>Chad d&#8217; Entremont, Assistant Director, Dissemination<br />
Mr. d&#8217;Entremont is a doctoral candidate in Politics and Education at <b>Teachers College</b>.  His primary interest is how ideology informs debates centered on school choice and privatization.</p>
<p>Casandra Gomez Arnon, Project Coordinator<br />
Ms. Arnon has professional experience in higher education administration and the non-profit sector. She has a Masters degree in Art and Art Education from <b>Teachers College</b>.</p>
<p>Greg Elaqua, Research Assistant<br />
Mr. Elacqua will begin his doctoral studies in the Comparative and International Education Program at <b>Teachers College</b> in the Fall of 2006.</p>
<p>Brian Gabele, Research Assistant<br />
Mr. Gabele is a doctoral candidate in the Economics of Education Program at <b>Teachers College</b>.</p>
<p>Heather Schwartz, Iscol Research Fellow for Educational Equity and Policy<br />
Ms. Schwartz is an EdD student in Leadership, Policy and Politics at <b>Teachers College</b>, supported by the Iscol Research Fellowship. She is interested in the connections between schools and neighborhoods.</p>
<p>Munyi Shea , Staff Associate<br />
Ms. Shea supports the administration of the Center. She is a doctoral candidate in the Department of Counseling and Clinical Psychology at <b>Teachers College</b>.</p>
<p>Jessica Simon, Research Assistant<br />
Ms. Simon is a doctoral candidate in Economics of Education at <b>Teachers College</b>.</p>
<p>Elisabeth Thurston, Research Assistant<br />
Ms. Thurston is a doctoral candidate in Politics and Education at <b>Teachers College</b>.</p>
<p>Katy Bulkley, Faculty Associate<br />
Professor, Montclair State University</p>
<p>Jeff Henig, Faculty Associate<br />
Professor of Political Science and Education, <b>Teachers College</b>.</p>
<p>Luis Huerta, Faculty Associate<br />
Professor of Education, <b>Teachers College</b><b>.</p>
<p>Amy Stuart Wells, Faculty Associate<br />
Professor of Sociology and Education, </b><b>Teachers College</b>.</p>
<p>You&#8217;ll notice a common thread.  Most of them work at Teachers College.  This fact alone makes the their claim of being non-partisan suspect.</p>
<p>Second, let&#8217;s look at the study itself.</p>
<p>From page 5 &#8211; &#8220;Sample sizes for some private school types were relatively small (ranging from 78-224 schools), and reduced slightly further in the full HLM models (57-203 schools). The participation rate for 4th grade conservative Christian schools, for 8th-grade charter schools, and for &#8220;other private&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Julie</title>
		<link>http://educationmatters.us/2006/06/21/national-scores-versus-acsi-scores/#comment-856</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Jul 2006 02:28:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationmatters.us/?p=576#comment-856</guid>
		<description>You ask for data...data is provided. The data state that public schools aren&#039;t behind when you you scrub the sample.  The WCA can scrub the sample through selective admissions.  How is that any different?  One might say there&#039;s an agenda there as well.  I wouldn&#039;t, though.  I simply asked to see a fair comparison and there it is...

As for &quot;discrediting&quot;, I&#039;ve read the analysis and it it no way sets out to discredit;  there&#039;s a big difference between &quot;qualify&quot; and &quot;discredit&quot;.  One might think you have an agenda...that wouldn&#039;t be true, would it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You ask for data&#8230;data is provided. The data state that public schools aren&#8217;t behind when you you scrub the sample.  The WCA can scrub the sample through selective admissions.  How is that any different?  One might say there&#8217;s an agenda there as well.  I wouldn&#8217;t, though.  I simply asked to see a fair comparison and there it is&#8230;</p>
<p>As for &#8220;discrediting&#8221;, I&#8217;ve read the analysis and it it no way sets out to discredit;  there&#8217;s a big difference between &#8220;qualify&#8221; and &#8220;discredit&#8221;.  One might think you have an agenda&#8230;that wouldn&#8217;t be true, would it?</p>
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		<title>By: site admin</title>
		<link>http://educationmatters.us/2006/06/21/national-scores-versus-acsi-scores/#comment-855</link>
		<dc:creator>site admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Jul 2006 01:07:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationmatters.us/?p=576#comment-855</guid>
		<description>From the link http://www.ncspe.org/readrel.php?set=pub&amp;cat=126, &quot;This suggests that assessments of charter schools must pay careful attention to the sample population that is being examined.&quot;

This says it all about this study.  They have an agenda and that agenda is to discredit the scores of charter schools and private schools.  To them, any number showing public schools are behind means they have to change the analysis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From the link <a href="http://www.ncspe.org/readrel.php?set=pub&#038;cat=126" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncspe.org/readrel.php?set=pub&#038;cat=126</a>, &#8220;This suggests that assessments of charter schools must pay careful attention to the sample population that is being examined.&#8221;</p>
<p>This says it all about this study.  They have an agenda and that agenda is to discredit the scores of charter schools and private schools.  To them, any number showing public schools are behind means they have to change the analysis.</p>
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		<title>By: Julie</title>
		<link>http://educationmatters.us/2006/06/21/national-scores-versus-acsi-scores/#comment-854</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Jul 2006 23:16:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationmatters.us/?p=576#comment-854</guid>
		<description>Thanks Kent...no argument here until you claimed that &quot;scrubbed&quot; scores would produce the same result for ASCI.

From a very recent study comparing public to private schools:

A summary:
http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/dn/education/columnists/jbenton/stories/062705dnmetedcol.4b6a3351.html

An abstract and the study itself:
http://www.ncspe.org/readrel.php?set=pub&amp;cat=126

Comment by Nan â€” 6/30/2006 @ 4:09 pm

Don&#039;t get me wrong...I have nothing against ASCI schools; I think they serve a very useful purpose and produce fine results.  It&#039;s just that &quot;site admin&#039;s&quot; argument (and your implication) won&#039;t hold water relative to the test score comparison.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Kent&#8230;no argument here until you claimed that &#8220;scrubbed&#8221; scores would produce the same result for ASCI.</p>
<p>From a very recent study comparing public to private schools:</p>
<p>A summary:<br />
<a href="http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/dn/education/columnists/jbenton/stories/062705dnmetedcol.4b6a3351.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/dn/education/columnists/jbenton/stories/062705dnmetedcol.4b6a3351.html</a></p>
<p>An abstract and the study itself:<br />
<a href="http://www.ncspe.org/readrel.php?set=pub&#038;cat=126" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncspe.org/readrel.php?set=pub&#038;cat=126</a></p>
<p>Comment by Nan â€” 6/30/2006 @ 4:09 pm</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t get me wrong&#8230;I have nothing against ASCI schools; I think they serve a very useful purpose and produce fine results.  It&#8217;s just that &#8220;site admin&#8217;s&#8221; argument (and your implication) won&#8217;t hold water relative to the test score comparison.</p>
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		<title>By: Kent</title>
		<link>http://educationmatters.us/2006/06/21/national-scores-versus-acsi-scores/#comment-853</link>
		<dc:creator>Kent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Jul 2006 16:18:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationmatters.us/?p=576#comment-853</guid>
		<description>Julie, let me give you my experience on government vs private schools.  My oldest daughter attends Geneva HS, and my youngest daughter attends an ASCI school.  When my younger daughter began the 4th grade last year, my government taught daughter looked at her younger sister&#039;s math book and said &quot;They didn&#039;t teach us that until I was in the 6th grade!&quot;  My government taught daughter is an honor roll student, taking honors level courses, but I can assure you by the time my ASCI taught daughter reaches the same grade level as my older child, she will surpass her older sister on virtually every level of education.  Neighborhood children who are taught at the government school can&#039;t hold a candle to my ASCI child.  When I see a neighbor child, who is one grade level above my youngest, unable to master the spelling of basic words like &quot;sorree&quot;, &quot;furget&quot; or &quot;frend&quot; (I am NOT making this up), I wonder why she is going to start the 6th grade this fall.  She is not LD, she is merely a by-product of a system that dumbs down the curriculum in order to make sure every child passes to the next grade level, regardless if they are able to read and write.  Additionally, the return on investment I am getting for my $5,000 annual cost for my ASCI child is far greater than the ROI on the almost $9,000 that CUSD 304 spends on every child.  As a taxpayer I am outraged that this kind of money is being spent and the result is so poor.  Perhaps if the government run schools spent less on administrators, like the Superintendent of CUSD 304 who earned $163,968 last year, and more on curriculum then we might not be having this debate over test scores.
Regarding test scores, people who defend the government schools rarely like raw numbers like test scores because they tell the truth.  Why not take out the test results of all those LD kids who are supposedly pulling down the average?  Take out the test scores of those children who wouldn&#039;t qualify for a private education, and then compare.  Then answer would still be the same - ASCI schools do a better job educating children than public schools.  I often wonder why defenders of public education don&#039;t try to manipulate test results in that manner.  I think the answer is simple - any way you slice it, dice it or twist it, government education falls far short on delivering results.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julie, let me give you my experience on government vs private schools.  My oldest daughter attends Geneva HS, and my youngest daughter attends an ASCI school.  When my younger daughter began the 4th grade last year, my government taught daughter looked at her younger sister&#8217;s math book and said &#8220;They didn&#8217;t teach us that until I was in the 6th grade!&#8221;  My government taught daughter is an honor roll student, taking honors level courses, but I can assure you by the time my ASCI taught daughter reaches the same grade level as my older child, she will surpass her older sister on virtually every level of education.  Neighborhood children who are taught at the government school can&#8217;t hold a candle to my ASCI child.  When I see a neighbor child, who is one grade level above my youngest, unable to master the spelling of basic words like &#8220;sorree&#8221;, &#8220;furget&#8221; or &#8220;frend&#8221; (I am NOT making this up), I wonder why she is going to start the 6th grade this fall.  She is not LD, she is merely a by-product of a system that dumbs down the curriculum in order to make sure every child passes to the next grade level, regardless if they are able to read and write.  Additionally, the return on investment I am getting for my $5,000 annual cost for my ASCI child is far greater than the ROI on the almost $9,000 that CUSD 304 spends on every child.  As a taxpayer I am outraged that this kind of money is being spent and the result is so poor.  Perhaps if the government run schools spent less on administrators, like the Superintendent of CUSD 304 who earned $163,968 last year, and more on curriculum then we might not be having this debate over test scores.<br />
Regarding test scores, people who defend the government schools rarely like raw numbers like test scores because they tell the truth.  Why not take out the test results of all those LD kids who are supposedly pulling down the average?  Take out the test scores of those children who wouldn&#8217;t qualify for a private education, and then compare.  Then answer would still be the same &#8211; ASCI schools do a better job educating children than public schools.  I often wonder why defenders of public education don&#8217;t try to manipulate test results in that manner.  I think the answer is simple &#8211; any way you slice it, dice it or twist it, government education falls far short on delivering results.</p>
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		<title>By: Julie</title>
		<link>http://educationmatters.us/2006/06/21/national-scores-versus-acsi-scores/#comment-852</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jun 2006 02:47:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationmatters.us/?p=576#comment-852</guid>
		<description>Stick to your argument.

&quot;Once again, proof is available to dispell the myth that money will solve the problem. It will not. If money were the issue, then ACSI schools would be providing a lower quality education than Public Government schools. The exact opposite is true; ACSI provide a higher quality education for less money.&quot;

The test score data proves nothing of the sort. When the samples tested have nothing in common, the outcome is irrelevant. I answer your questions when they apply to the argument. I will not respond to your attempts to make something racial out of this.  For that, sir, you should be ashamed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stick to your argument.</p>
<p>&#8220;Once again, proof is available to dispell the myth that money will solve the problem. It will not. If money were the issue, then ACSI schools would be providing a lower quality education than Public Government schools. The exact opposite is true; ACSI provide a higher quality education for less money.&#8221;</p>
<p>The test score data proves nothing of the sort. When the samples tested have nothing in common, the outcome is irrelevant. I answer your questions when they apply to the argument. I will not respond to your attempts to make something racial out of this.  For that, sir, you should be ashamed.</p>
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		<title>By: site admin</title>
		<link>http://educationmatters.us/2006/06/21/national-scores-versus-acsi-scores/#comment-851</link>
		<dc:creator>site admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jun 2006 02:08:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationmatters.us/?p=576#comment-851</guid>
		<description>Julie, would you answer some of the questions that have been asked again?  You want me to answer every question you put forth, but you selectively choose which questions to answer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julie, would you answer some of the questions that have been asked again?  You want me to answer every question you put forth, but you selectively choose which questions to answer.</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa</title>
		<link>http://educationmatters.us/2006/06/21/national-scores-versus-acsi-scores/#comment-850</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jun 2006 13:46:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationmatters.us/?p=576#comment-850</guid>
		<description>Julie,

The only area that you haven&#039;t hit but intentionally seem to be walking around is the religious part of the prerequisite. I&#039;m wondering if you have issues with that but just not saying it? I guess what I&#039;m asking is do you have some kind of chip on your shoulder with this subject?

The reason I ask that is because Lennie and I have debunked your &quot;understanding&quot; of selectiveness. Again... if you have any question about Westlake... you need to call THEM up! If you look again at their policy... it seems to be always talking about extreme situations, grades, etc. What I am reading from their policy is that they are a case by case basis. I DO NOT read the best of the best, although they may turn out such students. (i.e.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julie,</p>
<p>The only area that you haven&#8217;t hit but intentionally seem to be walking around is the religious part of the prerequisite. I&#8217;m wondering if you have issues with that but just not saying it? I guess what I&#8217;m asking is do you have some kind of chip on your shoulder with this subject?</p>
<p>The reason I ask that is because Lennie and I have debunked your &#8220;understanding&#8221; of selectiveness. Again&#8230; if you have any question about Westlake&#8230; you need to call THEM up! If you look again at their policy&#8230; it seems to be always talking about extreme situations, grades, etc. What I am reading from their policy is that they are a case by case basis. I DO NOT read the best of the best, although they may turn out such students. (i.e.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: site admin</title>
		<link>http://educationmatters.us/2006/06/21/national-scores-versus-acsi-scores/#comment-849</link>
		<dc:creator>site admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jun 2006 12:52:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationmatters.us/?p=576#comment-849</guid>
		<description>I will just quote from above:

&quot;Your premise is wrong from the beginning. It appears you believe that all schools teach equally whether government run or private. This premise is false.

Private schools must teach better to compete in the free market with parents. If they did not, they would lose enrollment and eventually go out of business. If they do well, the enrollment increases.

Government schools have no incentive to improve their students academically. They get the taxpayer money no matter what leaving most kids performing at a lower level than those in private schools.

With the 2 models, private schools students become the best, not because they were selected at the start, but because the private school education was better.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will just quote from above:</p>
<p>&#8220;Your premise is wrong from the beginning. It appears you believe that all schools teach equally whether government run or private. This premise is false.</p>
<p>Private schools must teach better to compete in the free market with parents. If they did not, they would lose enrollment and eventually go out of business. If they do well, the enrollment increases.</p>
<p>Government schools have no incentive to improve their students academically. They get the taxpayer money no matter what leaving most kids performing at a lower level than those in private schools.</p>
<p>With the 2 models, private schools students become the best, not because they were selected at the start, but because the private school education was better.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Julie</title>
		<link>http://educationmatters.us/2006/06/21/national-scores-versus-acsi-scores/#comment-848</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jun 2006 12:28:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://educationmatters.us/?p=576#comment-848</guid>
		<description>When a policy is exclusionary, it is discriminatory.  When a policy is exclusionary, it limits diversity. The explanation of &quot;who these kids are&quot; is not the issue; who they aren&#039;t is very clear.  Read WCA&#039;s admission policy.

If one could filter the government schools test scores the same way the WCA filters admission, the results might be interesting.

Back to your original premise: &quot;It is conventional wisdom that private religious school test scores are higher than that of public schools. Have you every wondered what the difference actually was in test scores?&quot;

As one who abandoned government schools long ago, I never subscribed to such &quot;wisdom&quot; and never felt the need to &quot;wonder&quot; as you did.  In fact, it doesn&#039;t appear wise to me.  My selection of private schools was always based on the performance of my options.  I didn&#039;t really care how they stacked up against the option I had already eliminated.

Please do not take this as license to stray from the point. Your premis is still invalid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When a policy is exclusionary, it is discriminatory.  When a policy is exclusionary, it limits diversity. The explanation of &#8220;who these kids are&#8221; is not the issue; who they aren&#8217;t is very clear.  Read WCA&#8217;s admission policy.</p>
<p>If one could filter the government schools test scores the same way the WCA filters admission, the results might be interesting.</p>
<p>Back to your original premise: &#8220;It is conventional wisdom that private religious school test scores are higher than that of public schools. Have you every wondered what the difference actually was in test scores?&#8221;</p>
<p>As one who abandoned government schools long ago, I never subscribed to such &#8220;wisdom&#8221; and never felt the need to &#8220;wonder&#8221; as you did.  In fact, it doesn&#8217;t appear wise to me.  My selection of private schools was always based on the performance of my options.  I didn&#8217;t really care how they stacked up against the option I had already eliminated.</p>
<p>Please do not take this as license to stray from the point. Your premis is still invalid.</p>
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