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	<title>Comments on: School Finance Reform Website</title>
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	<link>http://educationmatters.us/2005/10/29/school-finance-reform-website/</link>
	<description>Reform Education because Education Mattes</description>
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		<title>By: YouveGotToBeKidding</title>
		<link>http://educationmatters.us/2005/10/29/school-finance-reform-website/#comment-684</link>
		<dc:creator>YouveGotToBeKidding</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 20:19:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=309#comment-684</guid>
		<description>Upon further research, I need to withdraw and reserve my positive review of the Lewis-Lemon project in Rockford.
http://www.rrstar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050222/NEWS0107/502220321/1011 , and,
http://www.greatschools.net/modperl/achievement/il/3566
Let me further state that nowhere in my comments did I ever even HINT that &quot;It appears you don&#039;t believe other races or impoverished kids can learn as well as what you call your &quot;white, mid to high income district&quot;. &quot;
I never said one couldn&#039;t learn;I alluded to the fact that one might not learn or might not test as well as another in an underfunded environment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Upon further research, I need to withdraw and reserve my positive review of the Lewis-Lemon project in Rockford.<br />
<a href="http://www.rrstar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050222/NEWS0107/502220321/1011" rel="nofollow">http://www.rrstar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050222/NEWS0107/502220321/1011</a> , and,<br />
<a href="http://www.greatschools.net/modperl/achievement/il/3566" rel="nofollow">http://www.greatschools.net/modperl/achievement/il/3566</a><br />
Let me further state that nowhere in my comments did I ever even HINT that &#8220;It appears you don&#8217;t believe other races or impoverished kids can learn as well as what you call your &#8220;white, mid to high income district&#8221;. &#8221;<br />
I never said one couldn&#8217;t learn;I alluded to the fact that one might not learn or might not test as well as another in an underfunded environment.</p>
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		<title>By: YouveGotToBeKidding</title>
		<link>http://educationmatters.us/2005/10/29/school-finance-reform-website/#comment-683</link>
		<dc:creator>YouveGotToBeKidding</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 12:51:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=309#comment-683</guid>
		<description>If &quot;It is a bogus argument and that was the point of the comparison.&quot;, then its purpose must have been inflammatory.  Otherwise, it wouldn&#039;t have been presented as relevant.

It appears that putting a label to demographics is inflammatory for you, and for that please accept my apology.  The Lewis Lemon project was a wonderful, successful example of exactly the point I was trying to make.  It seems logical that when funding is limited, teaching to the majority is most cost effective. The test scores there seem to prove that out and are cited in your example.

Please understand that not all demographics are racial.  A non-English speaking student requires a different educational approach than an English speaking one and that&#039;s not as easy to deliver in a 700 student environment without proper funding.  Factor in physical and mental disabilities, and costs per pupil go up even more.  Washington Central doesn&#039;t have any of those issues; I couldn&#039;t even find a significant special Ed entry in their budget, but I&#039;m certainly no accountant.

So let me restate one of my more recent questions, lest we digress:
&quot;...show the argument that the NEA, IFT, and Big Ed in general make about the inequity in funding across the State.&quot;
I&#039;d like to see some of that in the context of this argument, please.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If &#8220;It is a bogus argument and that was the point of the comparison.&#8221;, then its purpose must have been inflammatory.  Otherwise, it wouldn&#8217;t have been presented as relevant.</p>
<p>It appears that putting a label to demographics is inflammatory for you, and for that please accept my apology.  The Lewis Lemon project was a wonderful, successful example of exactly the point I was trying to make.  It seems logical that when funding is limited, teaching to the majority is most cost effective. The test scores there seem to prove that out and are cited in your example.</p>
<p>Please understand that not all demographics are racial.  A non-English speaking student requires a different educational approach than an English speaking one and that&#8217;s not as easy to deliver in a 700 student environment without proper funding.  Factor in physical and mental disabilities, and costs per pupil go up even more.  Washington Central doesn&#8217;t have any of those issues; I couldn&#8217;t even find a significant special Ed entry in their budget, but I&#8217;m certainly no accountant.</p>
<p>So let me restate one of my more recent questions, lest we digress:<br />
&#8220;&#8230;show the argument that the NEA, IFT, and Big Ed in general make about the inequity in funding across the State.&#8221;<br />
I&#8217;d like to see some of that in the context of this argument, please.</p>
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		<title>By: Lennie</title>
		<link>http://educationmatters.us/2005/10/29/school-finance-reform-website/#comment-682</link>
		<dc:creator>Lennie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 04:36:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=309#comment-682</guid>
		<description>YGTBK,

The example given was not infammatory.  To me, it was given to dramatically show the argument that the NEA, IFT, and Big Ed in general make about the inequity in funding across the State.  It is a bogus argument and that was the point of the comparison.  As I stated in my post, if you don&#039;t like the comparison you should get these groups to stop using the generalization of the inequity of funding.  They use this argument all the time.

Next, if you and so many others don&#039;t believe it is about money, then why are there so many referendums asking for more? Why are all the districts crying to the State for more money?  You arguments here really don&#039;t hold water.

As for your question, &quot;Can a $ in an all white, mid to high income district in Peoria with no special needs produce the same result as a $ in a diverse, low income, high ESL and special needs district in Metro Chicago?&quot;, I believe the answer is yes. All kids call learn at the same rate if taught properly.  This is not so much a function of money, but of the instructional techniques used.  This has been proven over and over again. It appears you don&#039;t believe other races or impoverished kids can learn as well as what you call your &quot;white, mid to high income district&quot;.  Here is a refresher from just down the road in Rockford:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Nearly eight in 10 children who enter Lewis Lemon Global Studies Academy in prim blue uniforms are black. All but 15 percent of the school&#039;s 412 pupils are poor. Don&#039;t dare tell these children that, statistically speaking, they should be struggling in school. Lewis Lemon&#039;s third-grade students ranked No. 2 out of 35 Rockford elementary schools that administered the Illinois Standards Achievement Test in reading and math. ... At Lewis Lemon ... black third-graders outperformed white counterparts in reading and math in last spring&#039;s tests; 97 percent of black students met state standards, compared with 92.3 percent of white students. And 95.3 percent of students classified as poor met math standards. Compare that to scores around the district: 41.1 percent of black third-graders, compared to 73.7 percent of whites, met state math standards. And 51.9 percent of poor students met third-grade math standards against 74.9 percent of their peers who aren&#039;t poor.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.rrstar.com/localnews/your_community/rockford/20031214-2637.shtml&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;This article&lt;/a&gt; gives the details on the scores and the school&#039;s rankings.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.rrstar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050116/NEWS0107/50115021&amp;SearchID=73196946226796&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;This article&lt;/a&gt; goes into detail about why Principal Parker was removed from instructional duties when she produced these results.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>YGTBK,</p>
<p>The example given was not infammatory.  To me, it was given to dramatically show the argument that the NEA, IFT, and Big Ed in general make about the inequity in funding across the State.  It is a bogus argument and that was the point of the comparison.  As I stated in my post, if you don&#8217;t like the comparison you should get these groups to stop using the generalization of the inequity of funding.  They use this argument all the time.</p>
<p>Next, if you and so many others don&#8217;t believe it is about money, then why are there so many referendums asking for more? Why are all the districts crying to the State for more money?  You arguments here really don&#8217;t hold water.</p>
<p>As for your question, &#8220;Can a $ in an all white, mid to high income district in Peoria with no special needs produce the same result as a $ in a diverse, low income, high ESL and special needs district in Metro Chicago?&#8221;, I believe the answer is yes. All kids call learn at the same rate if taught properly.  This is not so much a function of money, but of the instructional techniques used.  This has been proven over and over again. It appears you don&#8217;t believe other races or impoverished kids can learn as well as what you call your &#8220;white, mid to high income district&#8221;.  Here is a refresher from just down the road in Rockford:</p>
<blockquote><p>Nearly eight in 10 children who enter Lewis Lemon Global Studies Academy in prim blue uniforms are black. All but 15 percent of the school&#8217;s 412 pupils are poor. Don&#8217;t dare tell these children that, statistically speaking, they should be struggling in school. Lewis Lemon&#8217;s third-grade students ranked No. 2 out of 35 Rockford elementary schools that administered the Illinois Standards Achievement Test in reading and math. &#8230; At Lewis Lemon &#8230; black third-graders outperformed white counterparts in reading and math in last spring&#8217;s tests; 97 percent of black students met state standards, compared with 92.3 percent of white students. And 95.3 percent of students classified as poor met math standards. Compare that to scores around the district: 41.1 percent of black third-graders, compared to 73.7 percent of whites, met state math standards. And 51.9 percent of poor students met third-grade math standards against 74.9 percent of their peers who aren&#8217;t poor.</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://www.rrstar.com/localnews/your_community/rockford/20031214-2637.shtml" rel="nofollow">This article</a> gives the details on the scores and the school&#8217;s rankings.  <a href="http://www.rrstar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050116/NEWS0107/50115021&amp;SearchID=73196946226796" rel="nofollow">This article</a> goes into detail about why Principal Parker was removed from instructional duties when she produced these results.</p>
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		<title>By: YouveGotToBeKidding</title>
		<link>http://educationmatters.us/2005/10/29/school-finance-reform-website/#comment-681</link>
		<dc:creator>YouveGotToBeKidding</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 04:14:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=309#comment-681</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s pretty clear that the Maine West and Washington Central example in the original graph was meant to be nothing more than inflammatory; the argument was ludicrous.  As far as the NEA and IFT advocating that more money results in a better quality education, I&#039;d be interested in the context. Lastly, I&#039;m not certain what you mean by the statement, &quot;But who makes the argument test scores (ISAT) matter?&quot;.  Could you elaborate?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s pretty clear that the Maine West and Washington Central example in the original graph was meant to be nothing more than inflammatory; the argument was ludicrous.  As far as the NEA and IFT advocating that more money results in a better quality education, I&#8217;d be interested in the context. Lastly, I&#8217;m not certain what you mean by the statement, &#8220;But who makes the argument test scores (ISAT) matter?&#8221;.  Could you elaborate?</p>
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		<title>By: TSwan</title>
		<link>http://educationmatters.us/2005/10/29/school-finance-reform-website/#comment-680</link>
		<dc:creator>TSwan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 00:16:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=309#comment-680</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s more money (in terms of land value/EAV) in the Maine West district, including Des Plaines, than in the Washington District in Peoria. The argument has been made by the NEA and IFT that indeed it is money that results in a better quality education. Therefore the comparison chart is relevant, perhaps not as apples-to-apples but certainly dollar-for-dollar. Do test scores equal a quality education? No. But who makes the argument test scores (ISAT) matter?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s more money (in terms of land value/EAV) in the Maine West district, including Des Plaines, than in the Washington District in Peoria. The argument has been made by the NEA and IFT that indeed it is money that results in a better quality education. Therefore the comparison chart is relevant, perhaps not as apples-to-apples but certainly dollar-for-dollar. Do test scores equal a quality education? No. But who makes the argument test scores (ISAT) matter?</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://educationmatters.us/2005/10/29/school-finance-reform-website/#comment-679</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2005 21:17:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=309#comment-679</guid>
		<description>Agreed.  There are many other factors besides $$$s in and test scores out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed.  There are many other factors besides $$$s in and test scores out.</p>
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		<title>By: YouveGotToBeKidding</title>
		<link>http://educationmatters.us/2005/10/29/school-finance-reform-website/#comment-678</link>
		<dc:creator>YouveGotToBeKidding</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2005 00:33:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=309#comment-678</guid>
		<description>Not necessarily. Can a $ in an all white, mid to high income district in Peoria with no special needs produce the same result as a $ in a diverse, low income, high ESL and special needs district in Metro Chicago?  And will the test scores accurately reflect the effort if you compare them?  It&#039;s going to take more dollars in the later to produce the same score as the former. What I said was, $&#039;s don&#039;t necessarily = test scores and test scores don&#039;t necessarily = quality education.  Assessment needs to be authentic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not necessarily. Can a $ in an all white, mid to high income district in Peoria with no special needs produce the same result as a $ in a diverse, low income, high ESL and special needs district in Metro Chicago?  And will the test scores accurately reflect the effort if you compare them?  It&#8217;s going to take more dollars in the later to produce the same score as the former. What I said was, $&#8217;s don&#8217;t necessarily = test scores and test scores don&#8217;t necessarily = quality education.  Assessment needs to be authentic.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://educationmatters.us/2005/10/29/school-finance-reform-website/#comment-677</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Nov 2005 23:21:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=309#comment-677</guid>
		<description>But if we are going to evaluate the school system for &#039;performance&#039;, you have to look at what is put in (money) and what comes out (quality of children educated), right?  Other thoughts on how to objectively evaluate &#039;how they are doing&#039;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But if we are going to evaluate the school system for &#8216;performance&#8217;, you have to look at what is put in (money) and what comes out (quality of children educated), right?  Other thoughts on how to objectively evaluate &#8216;how they are doing&#8217;?</p>
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		<title>By: YouveGotToBeKidding</title>
		<link>http://educationmatters.us/2005/10/29/school-finance-reform-website/#comment-676</link>
		<dc:creator>YouveGotToBeKidding</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Nov 2005 22:10:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=309#comment-676</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not so sure the the D1 to D51 comparison does weigh that direction, but you do make a good point. The first argument was certainly apples to oranges, and the second gets close; say Macintosh to Delicious. 1st, look at the geography and consider its affect on finance.  Then, look at the demographics and you&#039;re back to apples and oranges.

I can go through the 890 some districts and find &quot;pears&quot; (cute pun, huh?) to support any argument.  Who ever said that $ = test scores or that test scores = quality education anyway?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not so sure the the D1 to D51 comparison does weigh that direction, but you do make a good point. The first argument was certainly apples to oranges, and the second gets close; say Macintosh to Delicious. 1st, look at the geography and consider its affect on finance.  Then, look at the demographics and you&#8217;re back to apples and oranges.</p>
<p>I can go through the 890 some districts and find &#8220;pears&#8221; (cute pun, huh?) to support any argument.  Who ever said that $ = test scores or that test scores = quality education anyway?</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://educationmatters.us/2005/10/29/school-finance-reform-website/#comment-675</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Nov 2005 21:54:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=309#comment-675</guid>
		<description>Ok, YouveGotToBeKidding has a legitimate point.  The comparison is apples to oranges.  Spending needs in elementary vs. high school districts are very different.  Is there some worth in spend-per-student as a simple yardstick?  Sure.  Is this particular example flawed?  Yes.  Who is who to say which argument has the fallacy?  It&#039;s a matter of opinion.  You&#039;ve gone on to compare Washington Central to Winthrop Harbor ( a current district under the spotlight).  That comparison weighs in the direction of your opinion.  Going back to the report cards, one could easily find two districts to compare that would come out the other way.  Bottom line, there are many factors going into the per-pupil spend and quality of education &#039;formulas&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, YouveGotToBeKidding has a legitimate point.  The comparison is apples to oranges.  Spending needs in elementary vs. high school districts are very different.  Is there some worth in spend-per-student as a simple yardstick?  Sure.  Is this particular example flawed?  Yes.  Who is who to say which argument has the fallacy?  It&#8217;s a matter of opinion.  You&#8217;ve gone on to compare Washington Central to Winthrop Harbor ( a current district under the spotlight).  That comparison weighs in the direction of your opinion.  Going back to the report cards, one could easily find two districts to compare that would come out the other way.  Bottom line, there are many factors going into the per-pupil spend and quality of education &#8216;formulas&#8217;.</p>
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