Winthrop Harbor Referendum Presentation
- on 10.01.05
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If want to hear the facts from both sides about the Winthrop Harbor so called “Emergency” Referendum, be at the School Library at 500 North Avenuve on Tuesday, Oct. 4th at 3:30 pm. Proponents of the referendum will be presenting their case in support of the referendum. CRAFT will present reasons to vot against the referendum which will include showing how the true cost of the referendum will be more than the 39 cents shown on the ballot.
Here is your chance to hear both sides. Be there and be informed. If anyone could provide me with notes of the meeting I would appreciate it. I will not be able to attend.
Lennie,
I’d be happy to provide you with notes. But, I don’t think you’d want mine.
I assume that last post was taken with good humor (as it was intended).
Both the CRAFT website, and the votenotax.org site are stating that the tax increase will be considerably more thean the proposed $.39 increase. They’re trying to tell the voters that they are being deceived but don’t tell them exactly how? Instead they invite them to a forum that many voters would have a difficult time getting to?
If you have an understanding of what they’re saying the actual increase is, can you explain it to me?
I don’t have the specifics for your district, but the same thing happened here. The Tax Extension office for Lake County can give you the best explanation. The basics of it happen because the referendum can be taken over 5 years. Because of the Rate Increase Factor and the Tax Cap, the full rate may not be achieved in the first year. Because of that, the rate that can be taken the next year can be greater than what was promised. Also, if the other funds, beside the Ed Fund, are not at their maximum, they can also be raised each year regardless of the referendum. This allows the district to effectively get a lot more money in some cases than the rate promised in the referendum. This is a rough explanation. It is not exact, but just an overview. You should really contact the County to get the accurate numbers, but virtually every district I have seen gives the lowest number and then in actuality takes more.
Here are some more resources for this:
District 46 Explanation
District 46 Rate Sheets From County
Tribune and Herald Articles explanations
D 158 Actuals
Enjoy the reading. Yes, I took the first comment as it was meant. I do have a sense of humor even if Carl doesn’t think so.
So why haven’t these groups already provided the voters with the information that supports this postition?Why don’t their flyers encourage voters to check with the county?
Obviously, I don’t expect you to speak on their behalf, but I’d like to hear your take on it.
Dana…
To answer your question, read carefully; then watch the carpetbaggers tear your community to shreads like they did in CCSD 46.
http://www.extremewisdom.com/essays/archives/2005/07/2the_strategy_t.php
Taxes calculations are done in the spring. This time of year, unless it is specifically requested, everything is just an estimate. I’m sure the Tax Extension Office can do these calculations with pretty good guesses for next year if asked.
No, I cannot speak for the other groups. I do know the people from CRAFT, somewhat. I am sure that they will tell you also that their numbers come from the Tax Extension Office.
Dana, please feel free to send me your notes. If there is a presentation given, I would love to get it. I am even willing to post it on my site. I would hope it is a power point presentation. Could have the presenter email it to me?
Thanks.
Do you mean the district’s presentation?
Yes…
Here is my question…. I just looked at my property tax bill that I just finished paying the 2nd installment Sep. 6, 2005.
According to my tax bill (I live in Winthrop Harbor), the tax rate for School District 1 is $2.4950 (not $2.17). There is an additional District 1 Pension at $.1040. This equals a current District 1 tax rate of $2.599.
So where does this $2.17 come in? I am already paying more than the proposed $2.56. Anyone who would like to shed some light on this, I would appreciate it very much.
That was your bill for 2004. The tax rates for 2005 won’t be available until sometime in May. In the meantime, everything is just a projection. Your rate in Winthrop Harbor is more than likely projected down because (I know it’s not popular coming from me) your property values are going up. That combine with the tax cap, that is. Pretty complicated, huh? So when your district tries to simplify it by showing you what it will actually cost, the carpetbaggers jump all over the semantics to make your neighbors look like crooks!
When the district says they need .39 cents it means they need the maximum rate to be increased by .39 cents. If the rate goes down, based on increased property values, the BOE could actually raise the collectible rate by MORE than .39 cents; tax cap allowing.
So the honest BOE gives the community a dollar estimate of the increas and sticks to it. The carpetbaggers say that never happens…they write”You should really contact the County to get the accurate numbers, but virtually every district I have seen gives the lowest number and then in actuality takes more.”
But that simply isn’t true. Many BOE’s tell the public exactly what they need, how they’ll collect it, and that even if allowed by law they won’t collect more. The carpetbaggers know this but would rather tell you it’s “virtually” false.
Ask your BOE, your neighbors, for the truth…not some yahoo from Carpentersville!
Ummmmm okay….. Thanks for responding to my question, and yes, I was referring to the 2004 bill. The truth is what I see on my tax bill, and the fact that the “real” rate of $2.4950, and the amount upon which my taxes are calculated, is totally different from the $2.17.
When I went to investigate my own circumstances by just getting out my recent tax bill, I am expecting to see $2.17, not $2.4950. So, does this mean then, that when an increase of .39 cents is requested, it could be $2.4950 + .39 = $2.885?
Thanks.
First, read the links under comment 3; they show why most districts collect more money than promised.
Second, the tax bill shows the total tax rate across all the funds levied by the district, thus the 2.599. The 2.17 is the Ed fund rate only. Click this link for the PTAX report that shows the breakdown of all the funds levied by the District later tonight. I got it from the Lake County Tax Extension Office.
The issue on the ballot is to take the maximum tax rate for the district from $2.60 to $2.99. Please show us how that tax rate could be taken to anything higher than the $2.99 that would be allowed by law if the voters improve the increase.
Dana:
In another thread, you made note of a potential state takeover in your district. Your district is currently on the states WATCH LIST for having a negative fund balace at years end. The prior year it was a mere $14,000 which was down significantly from the year before that (a balance of several hundred thousand). As Lennie provided in his post regarding CCSD 46’s potential takeover, the most significant factor in determining whether or not such action would be taken is 2 consecutive years of negative fund balances. Your trend is definately tracking in that direction.
Don’t let carpetbaggers tell you your neighbors are crooks. Don’t let them tell you your BOE can take more than the maximum allowed by voter-approved law. Don’t let them tell you that your BOE is trying to “Blackmail” you with the threat of a potential take-over. It’s spin. They want to kill every referendum, any referendum, regardless. They have no idea what your needs are.
Carl, from my understanding it will be explained at the presentation tomorrow. Also, if you read all the links from comment #3 it explains it pretty well as well. I did an overview of how it happens as well in comment #3.
As far as the state takeover it is not immediate for 2 consectutive years of negative fund balances. Reread the letter that explains the 3 instances the State can start the process.
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to explain it, Lennie. If you truly have an “understanding”, postb it here. You have skirted the issue in near every post.
If the issue at ballot is to raise the maximum tax rate to $2.99, how can the BOE collect more than the maximum allowed by voter-approved law?
As for state takeover, who said anything about immediate? I believe I said “potential”. And as for CCSD 46, they haven’t yet had a negative year-end balance. Why would you try to make these people believe they are the same?
Carl, I already posted how this happens in comment #3. It is also explained in the articles listed there. I will tell you again, go reread them.
Potential is such a loaded word Carl. If it is not immenent, then why is the referendum needed now instead of in the spring? The district cannot get any money until next June no matter what. If it does pass and they restore teachers and they claim they will, then they will have deficit spending for a second year in a row. BTW, the deficit spending for the State calculations are the combined funds left in Ed, O&M, Transportation, and Working Cash. Would someone in WH like to share the exact balances of those 4 funds with us?
Again, if you want more details go to the presentation tomorrow afternoon. If not, call the Lake County Tax Extension Office, they will walk you through the process of how this works.
none of your posts explain “how this happens”. They all speak to the levy, and not one scenario shows an expenditure in excess of the legal, voter-approved maximum rate. So once more, if the ballot asks to increase the maximum rate to $2.99, show me a scenario where that maximum is exceeded, thereby violating the the will of the people?
The fund balances are on the ISBE website…follow the link to the PDF right on the home page for school finance.
Remember this article Carl: Tax Increase Really 1.37 Not .89 for here in D46. As I have already stated, there are several examples in the articles in comment #3 of how districts have done this.
Also, there are a few more links with explanations in this post.
You might try reading the links I have pointed to here and before. If you still need an explanation, call the Tax Extension office. What I have given you should be plenty of explanation unless you need them to take you through it step by step. If you prefer, come to the BOE meeting at the middle school and I can show you an example in person.
Thats the levy, Lennie…read it again yourself. The .89 cents was the difference between the current rate and the new proposed maximum. The $1.37 was the total of 2 levies in 2 different years, neither of which exceeded the $3.50 maximum rate the voters were asked to approve. In your scenario, $1.37 and .89 cents are apples and oranges; $1.37 being the total of 2 separate levies in two different years and .89 cents being a static, snapshot in time, figure indicating the difference between the current rate at that time and a proposed maximum of $3.50. You and CRAFT like to use them in the same context to make it look like someone lied.
So, one more time,
SHOW ME WHERE THE SCENARIO EXCEEDS THE MAXIMUM RATE ALLOWED BY VOTER-APPROVED LAW. The voters are approving a referendum to increase the maximum rate. Show us how a BOE can exceed the maximum rate they approve.
Carl, you are the only saying they can exceed the maximum rate. We keep saying they are taking more money than promised. In the example given, the levy was made over 2 years giving them a total increase of 1.37 instead of .89 as promised amd ans show by the tax rates themselves.
The same thing will happen in Winthrop Harbor. They are asking for .39. They can actually levy much more than that. It will be explained this afternoon at the presentation exactly how much more.
You are trying to force people to only look at the tax rate as it currently sits and not at how it actually works. Again, we keep saying the District can take more than the .39 promised, not that they will find a way to go above the approved maximum tax rate. Comparing the tax rate to the levy amounts is apples and oranges. The levy rate compared over multiple years is apples to apples.
The promise was to increase the maximum rate to $3.50. The .89 cents defined what that would be IF the current rate were $2.61. How can you create a scenario about how that promise would be broken if it didn’t include exceeding the legal, voter-approved maximum? The .89 cents was not the promise.
In Winthrop Harbor, the figure of .39 cents is a static, snapshot in time figure that represents the difference between the current rate and the proposed maximum they are asking for; not the promise. The ballot issue is to raise the maximum rate to $2.99; that’s the promise. The .39 cent figure defines what that increase would be based on the current rate.
The ballot issue DOES NOT state that the maximum rate will be increased by .39 cents to whatever arbitrary figure might occur as a result of re-assessment or new developement. It states that the new maximum rate will be $2.99.
Lastly, one mre time…show me a scenario where that promise is broken and the maximum is exceeded, thereby violating the the will of the people?
Carl,
I thought you were not going to respond anymore. I thought you were fed up with us.
Cathy
who is “us” ?
Per the D-1 web site (http://www.whsd1.org/), the ballot question is:
“Shall the maximum annual tax rate for educational purposes for Winthrop Harbor School District Number 1, Lake County, Illinois, be increased and established at 2.56 percent upon all the taxable property of said School District at the value, as equalized or assessed by the Department of Revenue, instead of 2.17 percent, the present maximum rate otherwise applicable to the next taxes to be extended for said purposes?”
Sue, when you were looking at the rate on your tax bill, it was probably the rate for all funds, or a combination of funds. The ballot question refers only to the Education Fund.
My understanding is that the County Clerk’s office confirmed that the current effective Ed Fund rate is 1.736%, and that with a passed referendum, the district could capture the full 2.56% requested. I.e. if the district wants to, it can capture $0.82, not the $0.39 advertised.
When the district found out people were inquiring about this at the county clerk’s office, district officials asked the county clerk to put a gag order on giving out information about the referendum. Why would the open and honest BoE do this? Why isn’t information about the BoE on the district’s web site? Members, meeting schedules, agendas, and minutes? The budget?
If the district is saying it will only capture an additional $0.39, it should have asked voters to simply confirm the current approved rate (which actually would make for a $0.43 increase), which would allow the district to recapture the full approved rate of $2.17. Basically, asking voters to confirm the current approved rate wipes out erosion caused by the PTELL (tax cap). Of course it also increases taxes significantly.
If someone wants to take your money without your approval, I suppose we can call them something besides crooks. Thieves. Robbers. The IRS.
“Shall the maximum annual tax rate for educational purposes for Winthrop Harbor School District Number 1, Lake County, Illinois, be increased and established at 2.56 percent upon all the taxable property of said School District at the value, as equalized or assessed by the Department of Revenue, instead of 2.17 percent, the present maximum rate otherwise applicable to the next taxes to be extended for said purposes?â€
You are being asked if you would approve an increase in the maximum rate to 2.56% regardless. The .39 cents is a static representation of the difference between a current maximum rate and a proposed maximum rate. Look at the proposed maximum rate. If you can’t live with that, vote no. It’s that simple. Don’t call people liars, crooks or the IRS; none of that is true.
Since the carpetbaggers continue to focus on the static difference used to describe the actual promise, they succeed in tricking you into the belief that the .39 cents is the promise and that your trust is being violated. That’s simply not the case. The promise is the NEW MAXIMUM.
So, one more time…show me a scenario where that promise is broken and the maximum is exceeded, thereby violating the the will of the people?
Carl are you a teacher?
The problem is that the promise is not being made clear. The thefterendum is being advertised as a $0.39 increase. If the promise is $2.56, that’s more than $0.39 over what people are paying today. The “What will the tax increase cost me” tables are not showing the promise, if $2.56 is the promise. They are showing what a $0.39 increase would cost. It’s pretty misleading.
No one said (at least I never said) that the district could capture more than the approved rate. Only that the district can capture more than the $0.39 increase that people are being told they’re voting on.
What would you call someone who wants to take your money without your approval?
Why does everyone keep asking me that question? What difference does it make? Should a teachers opinion carry more weight? For the record…
I, CARL J. BAKER (AKA CJB) AM JUST A CONCERNED PARENT LIKE MANY OF YOU, WITH A DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW.
Now…
“Shall the maximum annual tax rate for educational purposes for Winthrop Harbor School District Number 1, Lake County, Illinois, be increased and established at 2.56 percent upon all the taxable property of said School District at the value, as equalized or assessed by the Department of Revenue, instead of 2.17 percent, the present maximum rate otherwise applicable to the next taxes to be extended for said purposes?â€
That’s what it says on the ballot…that’s the promise. That the MAXIMUM RATE will be increased from 2.17% to 2.56% or .39 cents. If you have a problem with that, vote against it. If you are concerned seeing your district go from over $500k in reserves to negative $14 k in just 2 years, vote for it. You’ve got a pretty good thing going in WH…be a shame to let some carpetbaggers from Harvard and Round Lake screw it all up. Whats in it for them?
Carl, what do you mean by “carpetbaggers?” It sounds like name-calling to me, but I am wondering who you are referring to?
Yes, I finally get where the tax rate is all divided up on my tax bill. Thanks Lennie for the link on that. I did not realize that Transportation at .110 ($146,720) was one of them… I thought that
it was all under the $2.17 rate. I also did not know that Bonds are at .42 or $532,867, and Operations at .221 or $314,400. What is Operations? Sounds like the school building, maintenance, utilities to me.
So this gets me to the question…what is the deal with the “no contract” situation and the teachers? Why was this not made public?
1. A Northerner who went to the South after the Civil War for political or financial advantage. 2. An outsider, especially a politician, who presumptuously seeks a position or success in a new locality.
A carpetbagger is someone who comes to your town, claims to have all the answers to solve all your problems, trashes your community and LEAVES! CRAFT is an organization based in Harvard Illinois. Lennie is from Round Lake. The links Lennie gave you are from the propaganda he spewed with the help of CRAFT when Grayslake was up for referendum.
I’m guessing the teacher contract issue you are referring to is from the last district these carpetbaggers raped; CCSD 46
Lest you find me to be a carpetbagger as well, I am only urging you to look to your community for the answers. The people you elected. While my politics are obvious, I state over and over, “If the proposed maximum rate offends you, vote against it. Just don’t let these carpetbaggers tell you your friends and neighbors are crooks.”
Did CRAFT ever talk or make a presentation in CCSD 46? If so, when?
If someone came from outside D-1 to support the referendum, would the pro-tax crowd treat them with equal disrespect?
As far as WH being torn to shreds, it looks like it was pretty well shredded before the c-baggers arrived. This afternoon I saw several cases of yards full of Vote Yes signs next door to yards full of Vote No signs. Is this all due to the c-baggers? Is any of it due to the c-baggers. It’s a divisive issue on its own, without any c-baggers.
Board President Leech said a few interesting things this afternoon:
- D-1 is against consolidation (although he didn’t say why)
- This thefterendum will solve things for 8 – 9 years (that’s it?!?! then we go through this again, ad nauseum?)
- The teachers contract was ratified today, Tuesday, Oct 4, at about 3:30pm and raises base salaries by 3.75% (get a copy of the salary tables, starting with 04-05, to confirm what the actual increase is)
- “If it’s any more than $0.39, you can come up and shoot us.
Carl,
Quote: “1. A Northerner who went to the South after the Civil War for political or financial advantage. 2. An outsider, especially a politician, who presumptuously seeks a position or success in a new locality.”
“A carpetbagger is someone who comes to your town, claims to have all the answers to solve all your problems, trashes your community and LEAVES! CRAFT is an organization based in Harvard Illinois. Lennie is from Round Lake.” End quote.
Since Lennie is from the south, I guess that doesn’t fit and he’s not a politician so I guess that doesn’t fit either. Hmmmm. As far as trashing our community… our district now have the programs back that were taken away from the children in d46 because their wasn’t enough money. The old board said it wasn’t possible to restore them without a referendum and here we are! The new board restoring programs without a referendum in less than 2 months after taking their seats. I think that they have done some wonderful work in the very short time they have been in office. As far as Lennie specifically having a huge impact in why there is a new school board and there wasn’t a referendum passed… he would say that you give him far too much credit. I think the credit lies in the voters that were fed up. That’s it.
So…I just don’t see it, Carl.
While we are on THIS subject… I’m just curious, (Carl), where are you from and do you own property there? Have you always been a resident or did you move here from somewhere?
I believe “us” in comment 24 refers to those who oppose the overspending by BIg Ed and stand up and tell them “NO!”.
Correction: The raise in the base salary is 0.75%. “Step”, which happens when you move up in the pay scale after each year of teaching in the district, is 3%. That, I believe, is right around the same as it was last year.
Carl appears to be “carpetbagging” along with all the rest of us. BTW Carl, thanks for helping link my website. For another great essay on my over all strategy, I’ve added a new essay here (www.extremewisdom.com/essays/)
The theme is the same – school districts lie, and they use all the unnecessary (yet 100% intentional) complexity of the property tax system to spin numbers one way or the other. With out going into all the arcane details, here is a simple question. Post referendum, did all your taxes equal what they were supposed to be, or were they higher.
School District all over IL have:
Used Working Cash bonds to circumvent tax caps
Phased in tax hikes to rake in much more than originally billed in refernenda campaigns
Used questionable “Health, Life, Safety” exceptions to circumvent voters that turned down unneeded building projects
etc. etc.
You know my position Carl. The Education Establishment in the USA is a corrupt enterprise, and it is more corrupt in IL than it is in most other states.
Local Control is a myth as 90% of what a district does is mandated by the state. The idea that property taxes are “local” is also a myth, as the property tax for schools is a “state authorized” tax, and could be repealed outright in the next legislative session.
We “carpetbaggers” (and you appear to have joined us in carpetbagging) are simply pointing out the unwelcome truth about this corrupt system. Districts are merely “franchises” of the same corrupt enterprize, and we simply go from franchise to franchise pointing out this “corruption.”
We represent that portion of the population that a) aren’t brainwashed into thinking that ‘public schools’ are unassailable institutions of learning, and b) taxpayers who have become too frightened of the vile social pressure brought to bear by the PTOs and their brainwashed minnions spouting the zombie like “it’s for the children” garbage.
Every child in the nation could recieve a fine education for far less than is currently spent. All we have to do is disempower the ossified, protected, and bloated bureaucracies that are feeding off of the taxpayers.
How about that debate, Carl. Any time, any place, any issue.
“Every child in the nation could recieve a fine education for far less than is currently spent. All we have to do is disempower the ossified, protected, and bloated bureaucracies that are feeding off of the taxpayers.”
How could that be done, Bruno?
Fund the Child, not the beauracracy of the districts.
Humor me here: Say your ideas prevail. Explain to me HOW and WHEN this would improve the education of the children of Winthrop Harbor. Talk to me like I’m a 7th grader.
If we follow the model of New Zealand, we do the following:
1. abolish all School Districts
2. setup parental boards in each school
3. give each principal the money for the number of students attending that school
4. parents choose the school they want their kids to attend
The results were dramatic. The exodus from Public School won’t happen becuase teachers know they teach or lose funding. New Zealand started with a scoring gap of 14 to 15 points between public and private schools. This was erased in 2 years. Within 3 years, 87% of students attended Public schools whereas 85% did when they started the project. The most impressive stat is with those three years their schools scored wents “from 14 or 15 percent below our international peers to being about 14 or 15 percent above our international peers in terms of educational attainment.”
Carl, I’ve done some checking on you. I’ve found post that you have left on several websites. Why don’t you share with us who you are since you seem to know so much about other people. You a sore loser. You worked hard trying to get the referendum passed in D46. You are a bad loser Carl!!!!! Especially because our newly elected school board found a way to bring back our programs that were taken away [as a way to hold the parents hostage] What was your role in our disrict Carl? Why are you such a sore loser Carl?
Original comment #42 was deleted because it was inappropriate. Carl can tell us who he is if he wants but this Blog cannot be a part of identity identification unless the user chooses to reveal it. As a reminder… I was singled out on d46.info when they chose to give out my aliases connecting me with the same IP in our household. We do not want to be accused of doing the same. Thank you for your understanding.
With Lennie’s approval,
Lisa (Lennie’s wife)