Winthrop Harbor Referendum Cost
- on 09.02.05
- Winthrop Harbor
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The Winthrop Harbor Referendum will cost the district a minimum of $5600 and probably several thousand dollars higher. Again, how much did it cost to go to court to get this Special Election allowed? As you can see, the cost is adding up? Where is this money coming from? Is it from donations as has been suggested? How much is the actual cost to the district?
The County could not provide exact figures since this is the first special election held since 1988. The number given is only an estimate. It also does not include the money the County will have to spend for its employees that will have to work a holiday (Columbus Day) to prepare and get everything ready for the vote the following day, nor will it cover the overtime required on election night by these same employees. As you can see the true cost of this election will be much higher.
This is not an emergency. The district will not see any money until next June if the referendum is passed in October or next March. This is a slight of hand trick to get it passed when most voters are unaware of there even being an election.
It cost the district nothing to go to court, all of the work was done pro-bono by concerned
parties. The cost of the election is being paid for by a group of concerned citizens who
raising the money. Come to Winthrop Harbor, talk to the children, look at the facts, then,
and only then, make a judgement on the case. We want good schools because we want the best
for the future of America. We want Winthrop Harbor to continue to be a community that people
want to move to. If that doesn’t happen not only will our taxes be lower, but so will our
property values.
It cost the district nothing to go to court, all of the work was done pro-bono by concerned
parties. The cost of the election is being paid for by a group of concerned citizens who
raising the money. Come to Winthrop Harbor, talk to the children, look at the facts, then,
and only then, make a judgement on the case. We want good schools because we want the best
for the future of America. We want Winthrop Harbor to continue to be a community that people
want to move to. If that doesn’t happen not only will our taxes be lower, but so will our
property values.
Thanks for the info on the cost. Is the group of citizens paying for this a Political Action Committee? If so, would you please provide the name of that organization?
Also, I am still not sure how you can consider this an emergency since you cannot get money until next June no matter how the referendum goes. Would you care to explain that? What is your relationship to the district?
The District currently receives over $5.4 million dollars to educate 779 students. That is over $6,752 dollars per student! There has been a 119% increase in revenue to the district since 1990/91 school year with nearly the same number of students. (The maximum number of students was in 1999 with 819 students in the district and less revenue that currently.) Property taxes have gone up 137% since 1990/91 school year! Has your income increased 137% in the past 15 years? Has your home gone up in value 137%? Think twic about this before you decide to vote yes for this referendum.
76 properties sold in winthrop harbor in 1990 for an average of $100,000
63 properties have sold so far this year in wintrop harbor for an average of $220,000
property values have increased 120%
my income has increased by 140%
and by january, even the minimum wage will have nearly doubled
Were they the same properties?
Did you keep the same job that whole time or did you change jobs?
The school system is the same. The education system is still the same. Even taking your 120% increase in value means the district has received more money while the student population has stayed relatively the same. The money appears to be they if they did not overspend.
the gentleman referred to an average tax bill increase; i referred to an average property value increase. unless, of course, PDonalson is one of your alias’s, then i gues you could re-interpret for him.
same job…i do it very well. you must be doing at least as well, aren’t you?
costs go up, lennie; the cost of education is no different. if you can’t keep up, try home-schooling and move to montana.
No Carl, you referred to specific sales figures, not the avergage home price increase. There is a difference. You are getting into specifics. If you are going there, then you have be very specific by looking at the same houses. Otherwise, you can show a very distorted picture whereas most averaging takes out the extremes on both ends of the spectrum.
Congratulations on getting that much of an increase in your pay in the last 15 years.
what is the difference?
(sorry you haven’t done as well in the salary department. ever think of going back to…uh…school?)
Specifics don’t prove generalities and generalities don’t prove specifics. Remember the concept of comparing apples to apples?
you know, lennie…the man asked a question…i answered it with pure fact…sorry it doesn’t prove your point.
He asked if my home had gone up 137%. yes, it has, and the homes in his community have nearly as much. he asked if my income had gone up 137%. mine has…even more so.
is there just a chance you don’t know ALL the answers?
I have never admitted to knowing all the answers. Remember also, you don’t live in Winthrop Harbor.
well neither do you lennie! and it seems ok for you to have an opinion! and to meddle in their affairs!
I am just reporting the news. I am not giving my specifics about my house or salary because that is irrelevant to the debate there because I do not live there. Those questions are for the people who live in Winthrop Harbor to answer, not you or I.
Referring to post #6: The education system is not the same actually. If you want children to be prepared to compete
in a world that require skills in modern technology, you will have to face the fact that education will cost more.
In order to teach kids the skills that they will need, schools must have up-to-date technology. Students in schools who can’t keep up with technology will be left behind.
Referring to post #4: “That is over $6,752 dollars per student!” That is one of the lowest (I think the lowest now)per-pupil amounts in Lake County. Property values have increased very healthily. Why? Because we have good schools, that’s one of the main reasons people move here. If the referendum does pass, WH will still have lower taxes than the surrounding districts AND we’ll be able to maintain our high quality of education. If it doesn’t, more cuts will have to be made and thus the quality of ed. will go down.
Yes Carl, things get more expensive. As a matter of fact, the inflation rate was 43%, as measured by the consumer price index and with the tax cap while school reveunues from property tax rose 119%, from $2.5 million from 1990/91 to over $5.4 million for the school year 2003/04. This data is from Vote No Tax. They are the people doing the research. I am just reporting.
Dana, as for education costing more to meet the demands of the future, how much will be enough? Why is 119% increase not enough whne inflation has only been 43%?
Technology does not improve reading skills, neither does Whole Language. Phonics and structured reading classes teach reading skills. Math can be taught without technology as well as the elementary level. So can history, science and most other subjects. Not having technology is not an excuse for not properly teaching at the elementary level.
The need for technology does change in High School, but that is a different topic.
Who said that WH teachers are not teaching properly at the elementary level? District 1’s test scores exceed both the state and county averages. It’s true that all of the subjects can be taught without the technology, I never said they couldn’t. But it is necessary for students to use it at a young age because if they don’t, by the time they reach college, even high school for that matter, they’ll already be behind. Anyways, I was simply using technology as an example of one of the ways that education DOES get more expensive. Do we simply want the bare minimum for our kids, or do we want them to be competitive.
The last time the WH school district passed an education fund increase they assured the voters that it would sustain them for 8 years. That was 15 years ago. The district has kept spending low, while keeping the quality of education high. There is know doubt that they will continue to spend the taxpayers’ money wisely.
District 1 is currently on the IL state financial watch list. Because of the fact that PE had to be cut, it is at risk of being in violation of state code. The next thing to go will be core classroom teachers. If a tax increase does not happen, the district will then be under financial oversight by the state. It will most likely be encouraged to consolidate with a nearby district. If that happens, WH property taxes will be increased more than they would have if the referendum passed.
Would you care to explain why they have to have an speical referendum, which they had to go to court to get approved, when they won’t receive any money until next June even if it passes? This seems sneaky and underhanded to me.
After reading today’s Zion-Benton News it occurs to me that it is the SAME people who write letters, or in the case of the superindent and the president of the school board, articles about the same things. It is the Mr. & Mrs. Tenenbush, Mr. Leech, the Ellisons, Mr. Thompson and his daughters, etc. etc. etc. Each and every one of these individuals has a personal interest in the referenduhm passing.
I have also heard that those that are against the referendum do not have kids enrolled in the district.
Speaking as a taxypayer and citizen who does have a child in the distict, I am against the referendum for a number of reasons.
It is very short sighted for those who do have children currently enrolled in the school district to blame those who do not chilren enrolled in the school as the reason that they are against the referendum. I am appalled that it is now felt by many of those in favor of the referendum that somehow the schools will go downhill because there is no band, no chior, no cheerleading, etc. etc.
One of the reasons that Winthrop Harbor schools are have high test scores has much to do with the parents, who because the kids are given such enormous amounts of homework, essentially end up homeschooling their kids for an additional 4 1/2 hours per day after school lets out. Kids whos parents are not there for them are out of luck… that is the way it in Winthrop Harbor… but THAT is another topic that can be discussed later.
We moved to Winthrop Harbor, not because of the schools, but because we wanted more space than where we had lived previously.
One major factor regarding home value is HIGH PROPERTY TAXES! That is what will cause a drop in the values…. That is what people will look at when they consider living in Winthrop Harbor. Had known in 1990 that our property taxes would more than double within 14 years we would have never moved here. As it stands, taxes continue to go up as they have, we will not be able to afford to live here in another 10 years. People need to consider this.
Oh, and those whose salaries have gone up 140% …. congratulations… but will your income continue to double once you retire?
You said that people will consider the “HIGH PROPERTY TAXES” when looking at homes in WH. When I recently purchased my home property taxes played an important role. We first looked at homes in Zion because we could get a little more for our money there. However, if we had purchased a home in Zion of equal value to the one we bought in WH our monthly payments would have been at least $150 more than they are now. In addition, we now have the benefit of living in a higher performing district than Zion or Beach Park.
I’m sure the parents of surrounding districts would love to hear how they are less dedicated, because of the simple circumstance of where they live, than WH parents, and that’s why their students score as high on tests.
correction: “why their students don’t score as high on tests”
You write or the pro-referendum people as having a “personal interest in the referendum passing”. But this is true of every pro-referendum voter in the district: They may have kids or grandkids, they may see it as the best way to ensure a high quality community, etc. At the same time, the NO voters in the district ALSO have a personal interest in the referendum not passing, whether it’s that they don’t want their taxes to go up, or any other reason they may have for opposing it. The fact is, the reasons are “personal” for every voter in the district because, whatever the outcome, it will affect everybody in the community.
You said: “I have also heard that those that are against the referendum do not have kids enrolled in the district.” The district has not claimed that. They are aware that there are parents who oppose the referendum. What I believe you are referring to has to do with the fact that the some of the people and groups that have been among the most vocal to oppose this referendum DO NOT reside in the district.
Dana….there is no need for you to tell me what you “believe†I was referring to regarding in #23 (i.e. accusations that those who are against the referendum do not have kids enrolled in the district)…as being those who do not reside in the district. That is NOT what I meant. Here is what I meant…again:
#1. There are those in favor of the referendum who believe that only those who do not have children in the district are against the referendum. This could be retired people, single people, people without children, people with grown children. I do have a child enrolled in the district, and I am against the referendum because of the extrodinarily high property taxes that are a tremendous burden as they are. If I want my child to take voice lessons, I will pay for them myself. If my child wishes to learn an instrument, I will pay for lessons myself. If I want my child to play sports, I will pay for them myself. I would NEVER expect my neighbors or fellow taxpayers to pay for the extracurricular activities of MY child.
#2. While on the subject… I appreciate those from outside of our district voicing their position regarding this referendum. For too long now, there has been silence on the “no†side, as you put it.It is great to see this sort of debate. That is what democracy is all about, right? Those from out of the District 1 area….Thank you!
#3. The school board needs to revamp the way that they use over $6 million that they get for educating the 780 or so students in Winthrop Harbor. Their argument of “no money†makes no sense, when the adminstrators are paid in the top 8% of country and the teachers are ranked # 9 in the country for top wages, YET the students have some of the lowest amounts spent per student. What that says is that all of the money is going to everyone but the students and unless we get new people in to run our schoos, it is guaranteed it will stay that way,with or without the referendum.
Dana,
Please answer the questions asked. I will ask them again here so you do not have to go back through the comments:
1. Is the group of citizens paying for this a Political Action Committee? If so, would you please provide the name of that organization?
2. What is your relationship to the district?
3. Would you care to explain why they have to have an speical referendum, which they had to go to court to get approved, when they won’t receive any money until next June even if it passes?
4. Who did the pro-bono work with the court to get this approved?
Thank you in advance.
PDonaldson wrote…#2. While on the subject… I appreciate those from outside of our district voicing their position regarding this referendum….Those from out of the District 1 area….Thank you!
I assume that includes me? You’re welcome!
(Vote Yes For The Kids of Dist. #1…Keep Them #1)
Carl… Sure… you can assume that your comments are welcome..they certainly are. However, you need to get your facts straight, as even those on your “vote Yes for higher taxes†side claim that the average home in Winthrop Harbor is $175,000, not $200,000 as you said.
(Vote No —-It is all about the salaries for adminstrators and teachers. It is NOT about the kids, and it never was. If it had been… pay cuts, or at the very least, limited pay increases, would have been implememted on an emergency basis. If that were to happen, that is one thing that would cause me to change my vote.)
So far this year, 63 homes have been reported “sold” in winthrop harbor. the average price those homes “sold” for is $220,000. in 1990, 76 homes were reported “sold” in winthrop harbor. the average price those homes “sold” for was $100,000. since market value equals what willing buyers and willing sellers willingly agree to buy and sell for in an open market, that is the only “true” data relative to value. anything else is an assumption or opinion.
Your teachers are paid less than the average in the state and not very well. while your administrator/pupil ratio is lower than in my my district (which is so high it’s scarey), it’s tough to control in such a small district; and it’s still higher than the state average. maybe you should combine with a neighboring district to enjoy an economy of scale. is there one nearby that does as well as District #1? Your test scores are exemplory in comparison to the state…
Now here’s the biggie. if you won’t step up to the plate and do what’s right for YOUR kid on an emergency basis, why should the teachers? you don’t want to pay to educate YOUR kid, so the teachers should? i miss your logic. don’t get pissed…i’ve been polite to you and respect your opinion. i’ve just heard this too many times and have yet to see the light.
Carl… have you been polite, to anyone? Gee, I must have missed that…Anyway, I really don’t give a (edited) if you are polite or not, but ignorance is no excuse, and THAT you need to work on..
First of all…home values… According to the US Census Bureau the median value for owner occcupied Winthrop Harbor homes in 1999 was $142,800. (These are the most recent Census figures available) So, those on your “yes, we want higher taxes” side may be close to correct when they say that the “average home” in WH is worth $175,000, not $200,000. Carl, you are looking at those little post cards from the realtors that we get every so often. The average price of sold property in a given short term period is not the issue. For instance, not that long ago one of those postcards had a property that had sold for over $400,000, which brought the average sold way up to over $325,000. Does that mean that the average home in WH was worth over $300,000? No.
Second…. According to the American Federation of Teachers, the 2005 average teacher’s salary in Illinois is $51,000. In 2005, the average teachers salary in Winthrop Harbor was $50,000. Illinois is ranked in the top 8 in the country to top teachers salaries….Sorry, the teachers are not being underpaid.
Thirdly…… This emergency referendum is about extracurricular activities, right? Or, has that changed? You are right, I do not expect the teachers or anyone else to pay for my child’s extracurricular activities.. I pay for them myself! But I do not expect to pay for other kids in the district’s band, music, sports either!! That is the point, extracullicular activities right? Or………as you have implied… it is about “underpaid” teachers and raising their salaries??? Well, surprise! This is what the “vote no for higher taxes” is all about.
You wrote…”(Vote No —-It is all about the salaries for adminstrators and teachers. It is NOT about the kids, and it never was. If it had been… pay cuts, or at the very least, limited pay increases, would have been implememted on an emergency basis. If that were to happen, that is one thing that would cause me to change my vote.)”
Then you wrote…”I do not expect the teachers or anyone else to pay for my child’s extracurricular activities.. I pay for them myself!”
So which is it?
Winthrop Harbor as reported to your township assessor (not from realator postcards):
In 2003 the average home sold for $185,000. In 2004 the average home sold for $195,000. So far in 2005, the average home sold for $220,000.
$145,514 was the average in 1999, actually. But you were pretty close at $142,800. You folks have a pretty good property value trend going. You should see what’s happening in CCSD 46 since our referendums started failing…(average $253 in ‘04 and $259 so far in ‘05. ouch)
Ummmmm Carl, the Average Figire of $142,800 was not mine, but from the US Census Bureau..
sorry…just trying to make the point that the +/- 2% difference seems acceptable; regardless of where the data comes from. It seems the Census used the same or similar resource. Really what I was trying to dramatize is how sweet you guys have it there. Why would you want to jeapordize 10% to 20% appreciation opportunities to save a thousand on property tax?
In my district we went from 10% to 20% appreciation all the way down to less than 3% in one year! No one wants to live here now because all the carpet baggers are telling everyone all our neighbors are crooks and our teachers are overpaid and greedy. We used to be like you; award winning schools, Golden Apple award winning teachers, great test scores. When the funding couldn’t keep pace with the growth, and the carpet baggers convinced everyone we didn’t need to pass a referendum, well you can see what happened.
so once again, i say politely, vote your pocket book…vote no if you can’t afford it…vote no if that’s what you feel you have to do. just don’t let these outsiders tear your community apart like they did in CCSD 46.
with regard to teacher salary…AFT has not yet compiled statistics for 2005…the most current table they have is 2002-2003. The figues there indicate Illinois is 9th at $51,400 average. So as I said before, your teachers are paid below aveage salary for the state and probably rank in about the 80th percentile nation wide.
I personally believe that one gets what they pay for. I think Winthrop Harbor is getting a pretty good “bang for their buck” and would be pretty hard pressed to ask the teachers to pick up the slack.
Actually Carl, your comments are welcome. I am happy to see a “vote Yes for higher taxes†person who can accept the fact that there are “Vote No to higher taxes”… it is about the teacher/adminstrators’ salaries and always has been… citizens out there. Seems like some of the †vote Yes to higher taxes†proponents are having a problem with the “vote No to higher taxes†having a voice.
Mrs. Tenebush in a article in yesterday’s Zion Benton News said that she could not understand why so many people are so distrustful of the school adminstrators and disticts. Well, gee.. it would be nice to have thought that she and her husband might have done some research by this time as to why the citizens and taxpayers are distrustful. They were not in the area when the “Save the Bee’s†referendum was going on. This is one of the huge disadvantages to hiring a superintendent who was so far outside of our district and who therfore, does not get it.
District #1 needs to deal with the backlash from that disasterous referendum. Voter’s felt like they were led down the garden path and then dumped. I do not think the taxpayers will ever forget that, at least not for many many years. The ONLY way they can get this referendum passed is to specifically delegate on the ballot that the tax money from the referendum will go specifically to those programs they have eleminated and that this increase will be a separate entity on the tax bill and to reinstate programs that they took away from the kids immediately. Unless the district is willing to do this, they can kiss this tax increase goodbye too. They must do this for it to pass.
Thus far, this disrtict refuses to do this.. for their own reasons…they insist that the tax increase would go into the “general fund†i.e. once there, they can do whatever they damn well please. And THAT is not good enough for the KIDS.
Carl,
You are wrong about the teachers’ wages. Please check out the website heartheissues.com whose source is the US Census. According to this website, the champion.com, and according to the AFT, Illinois teachers are paid in the top 8 in the US. Winthrop Harbor teachers are paid in the upper 25% of the State, according to champion website. Where do you get your information, and what exactly is it? You disagree, but do not say where you get your info.
According to heartheissues.com, Illinois ranks #5 in paying the MOST state taxes in US. Lake County is the 2nd wealthiest county in Illinois. According to the National Center for Education Studies (nces.ed.gov) Winthrop Harbor’s District 1 is served by one of the smallest populatons in Lake County. Most of the Lake County school districts are double, triple, quaruple the size of Winthrop Harbor, and more.
According to the nces.ed.gov, Winthrop Harbor has one of the lower median incomes in Lake County. My own calculation is that people in Winthrop Harbor, and the rest of Lake County, pay approximately 8% of their yearly gross income on property taxes alone. This is a huge bill for most lower-middle income families… and any increase at all to the already high taxes is a big blow to them.
On top of that, the median value of property is also lower in Winthrop Harbor compared with the rest of Lake County. This is where the biggest change in property tax revenue occurs throughout Lake County.
Winthrop Harbor was, is, and continues to be, essentially, a working class village and school district. Anyone who wishes to try to “keep up with the Jone’s” by comparing our village to the likes of Lake Forest, Libertyville, etc., might be better off moving to those districts instead.
My question to you Carl…. are you in anyway connected to any of the school districts? Do you have any connection with teachers… for instance? The reason I ask is that it keeps coming back to your claim about lower teacher salaries and I would like to ask where you get your information.
I have named a lot of my sources… what are yours?
You wrote…”Second…. According to the American Federation of Teachers, the 2005 average teacher’s salary in Illinois is $51,000. In 2005, the average teachers salary in Winthrop Harbor was $50,000. Illinois is ranked in the top 8 in the country to top teachers salaries.”
http://www.aft.org – The most recent data compiled by AFT is for 2003 and it reports Illinois as #9 at $51,400.
http://www.thechampion.org – The most recent data reported by The Champion is for the ‘03-’04 school year. I believe you stated Winthrop Harbor teachers averaged $50,000. That would put it below the Illinois average.
My original post cited YOUR source…AFT. I thought that was sufficient. You have just now mentioned The Champion and you did not say for what year you were citing them, however, you do seem to be using it to support your original 2005 argument for salary in Winthrop Harbor. Forgive me if I misunderstood.
So in conclusion, I do not believe that I am wrong…AFT has not yet compiled figures for 2005 and neither has The Champion. May I ask where you got that idea?
Oh, I’m not certain why it matters, but I am just a concerned parent like you…with a different point of view…anxiously awaiting some legitimate data to support the argument that teachers are overpaid.
Just as a point of reference…www.TheChampion.org reports the average teacher salary for Winthrop Harbor at just over $47,000 compared to the Illinois average reported by http://www.AFT.org at $51,400. I believe you said those are the correct sources.
Regarding teachers/adminstrators salaries in Winthrop Harbor……anytime a salaries approach the $50,000 mark for teachers, and over $123,000 for administrators, it will be difficult to convince the voters that they are underpaid. Period. This is also taking into account the fact that the teachers work about 9 months out of the year, have all holidays off, as well as extended holiday periods for Thanksgiving, Christmas, Spring Break and Easter. Most working people do not have these luxuries. I suggest to any teachers and administrators in Distric 1, that if they feel underpaid, please go elsewhere, to another district where they may feel more justly compensated. Some of the highest paid teachers in District 1 are some of the worst teachers, not only in District 1, but in the entire county.
I will be happy to name names if requested…..
The referendum is a joke, (it is not about the kids, it is about the income, pensions, etc. for the teachers and adminstrators) and some day when these proponents get on a fixed income and are worried about making ends meet for daily living, they will change their minds. Right now, many retired people on fixed incomes are concerned that they can even keep their homes here in Winthrop Harbor. Where is the concern for them? Are they not also a part of our future too? I am concerned about the day when I retire if the current modus opperandus continues. Who wants to be worried if they can continue to live in their community because of the high taxes? Well, that is exactly what is happening right now.
Here is part of the solution:
1. Get the District 1 to agree that they will earmark ALL of the funds from the referendum directly into restoring the programs that they took away. In other words, the money cannot go into the General Fund. This may make those who are concerned that it is “not about the kids” feel reassured that their emergency referendum tax dollars will not be going toward increasing salaries. As of this date, the District has refused to do this.
2. Stop trying to diminish the impact that this will have on the community. This does not work.
3. Be honest and upfront. Stop the blatant propaganda.
4. Be honest about the huge increase in salary regarding a former/retired administrator so that his retire money could be greater. This is yet another one of the major reasons many are against this referendum.
PDonaldson, You have to work on changing the Board of Education. IF not, nothing will change and you will face the same operations over and over again. It may take you multiple election cycles, but it it imperative to replace those that continue these practices.
By all means, listen to Lennie. It was his propaganda (I got that word from you, PDonaldson; I like it) that helped elect a new BOE in CCSD 46. That new BOE has single-handedly restored programs without any sustainability using what I like to call “Whimpy Economics”. Remember Popeye’s buddy? I’ll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today? Problem is, Tuesday won’t come without a sucessful referendum….
Now, PDonaldson, where did that
“anytime a salaries approach the $50,000 mark for teachers, and over $123,000 for administrators, it will be difficult to convince the voters that they are underpaid.”
come from?
Why not $45,000? or $55,000? What makes Winthrop Harbors $50,000 the magic number?
A teacher is paid to work 190 days; regardless of holiday breaks, summers off, etc. That does not include parent nights, home preparation, continuing education requirements or overtime. That’s all extra and above and beyond the scope of the contract (if they’re lucky enough to have one). In CCSD 46 the work day was defined by contract to be 7 1/2 hours, however the teachers arrive at 7:30 (most much earlier) and cannot leave before 3:30 (most much later). They get 20 to 30 minutes at best for lunch. So while they could work just 7 1/2 hours per day, like in most other occupations, that’s just not possible. The students are there basically 8 to 3, so a teacher would be hard pressed to plan during the “work day”, wouldn’t they?
The average “professional” with 2 college degrees and 10 years of service will more than likely only work about 225 days (5 weeks paid vacation, 2 personal days, paid holidays, etc.); that is if the company is reputable and wants to retain anyone worth their salt.
Like teachers, they will probably work some long days and weekends, take work related calls at home, catch up on some projects at the dining room table. But that same professional will more than likely have multiple opportunities for advancement. Not many teachers aspire to being the next VP of second grade; that’s not how it works. And that same professional will average near $60,000 in annual salary.
So how is that so different?
Seems as though teacher salaries is a touchy subject with you, carl… Again, I ask if you have any connection in anyway to the teaching profession? Why have you not answered this question?
First of all, $50,000 is not the magic number in Winthrop Harbor. I do not understand your point. You are right, however… there are several teachers who make upwards of $71,000 in Winthrop Harbor. I thought we were talking averages… if you wish to get specific, that is fine too.
Secondly, I agree most definitely with you and Lennie, that we need a new school board. Many of those on the board have been there for many years…. too long, at any rate.
Thirdly , carl, you said that teachers are paid for 190 days. That amounts to 6 months of work. Even if you take your figure of $47,787 that amounts to $7,964.50 per month.
Fourth, I have to disagree with you regarding the 190 days not including “parent nights†as in Winthrop Harbor. The teachers (and students) are given 1/2 days on “parent night†days.
Fifth, continuing education means more money. Once a teacher gets a masters, their salary automatically goes up dramitically. One instance is a teacher whose salary went from $48,000 to 59,000.
I believe I answered your question in post #36…I wrote…
â€Oh, I’m not certain why it matters, but I am just a concerned parent like you…with a different point of view…anxiously awaiting some legitimate data to support the argument that teachers are overpaid.â€
And that’s about the extent of it…I reiterate…I’m not certain why it matters. And I’m still anxiously awaiting…
You wrote…
“anytime a salaries approach the $50,000 mark for teachers, and over $123,000 for administrators, it will be difficult to convince the voters that they are underpaid.â€
Are you saying at $49,000 they ARE underpaid? What makes approaching $50,000 unreasonable as a salary?
You Wrote…
“I agree most definitely with you and Lennie, that we need a new school board.”
I never said any such thing! That was Lennie’s suggestion to the people of your community to hide the need for a sucessful referendum. He thinks that if you get rid of the BOE that discovered and analysed the need, you can put off having to pay the bill! You may very well need a new BOE, but that won’t change the districts need for funding!
You wrote…
“Thirdly , carl, you said that teachers are paid for 190 days. That amounts to 6 months of work.â€
If you can find me one person, just one, that could possibly work 190 days in 6 months (they can even pick which 6 months…they don’t even have to be consecutive), I’ll hire ‘em and pay ‘em double! Sorry to poke fun, just re-read what I wrote earlier and your response…you’re just mistaken. Happens to the best of us!
You Wrote…
“Fourth, I have to disagree with you regarding the 190 days not including “parent nights†as in Winthrop Harbor. The teachers (and students) are given 1/2 days on “parent night†days.â€
Regardless of whether or not the teacher works a half day or a full day, they still have to meet the 190 day commitment and parent night doesn’t count. You might check your schools calendar and Contract.
You wrote…
“Fifth, continuing education means more money. Once a teacher gets a masters, their salary automatically goes up dramitically.â€
I would certainly hope that a teacher’s salary would improve dramatically with such an improvement in their education. However, that wasn’t what was referred to in my post. CEU and CPDU credit are required by the state for recertification; to ensure that teachers keep current and up-to-date with best practice. The time they spend obtaining their continuing education is their own; there is no time in the 190 days available since the children are in class 180 of those. Earning CEU’s and CPDU’s does not mean more money; it’s required to keep their jobs.
So, I’m still waiting for that argument that supports the statement that teachers are overpaid.
Okay carl…. 190 days = $251 per day!!! I have disagreed with YOUR argument that teachers are underpaid. Did I say they were overpaid?????? Where? Carl, have said put words into MY mouth.
I have owned, and still do, several businesses through the years. In the REAL world, $251 per day is a huge salary, carl! You and the rest of the school board, and those in favor of this tax are not in the real world. You think that working 190 days @ $251 is not enough. I am saying it is enough and anyone who does not like it should go elsewhere.
People in your district have higher incomes than here in Winthrop Harbor, so to us, $251 per day is a great salary!
Carl, I have come to the conclusion that you are involved with the teaching profession in some way, although you have never answered this question as I have requested. Therefore, I have decided not to answer any more of your ridiculous blogs.. they hold not merit.
carl, after some consideration I have decided to take you up on your offer of working for 6 months at double the pay! You are on….. by the way, what exactly do you do? Let me know how to contact you!
I believe I answered your question in post #36 and now post #44 and #47…I wrote…
â€Oh, I’m not certain why it matters, but I am just a concerned parent like you…with a different point of view…anxiously awaiting some legitimate data to support the argument that teachers are overpaid.â€
And that’s about the extent of it…I reiterate…I’m not certain why it matters. And I’m still anxiously awaiting…
Thanks for taking me up on the offer…show me in 100 words or less how you can work 190 days in any 6 months of your choice and I will pay you double the teacher salary of $251 per day. the e-mail link in this post is correct to contact me.
Carl, Your email address is not displayed. You have to post it in the comment or give me permission to forward PDonaldson your email addres.
Lennie
You said “show me in 100 words or less how you can work 190 days in any 6 months of your choice and I will pay double the teacher salary of $251 per day…” I am not sure what you mean by this and you do sound like a nightmare as an employer. Or, are you an employer? I think not. Because no decent employer would ever offer what you have offered. With all due respect, you sound like a typical “W-2.”
Anyone who has ever started their own business probably knows that it is not that unusual to work every single day, with no weekends, and very few holidays. This is something that I have done before,for almost 2 years, actually, until the business got off the ground, and this was without the knowledge that I would be making any profit from it, let alone a guaranteed $502 per day!! Frankly, the teachers do not work 6 months straight.
Individuals like you, carl, are exactly what the problem facing the schools, like Winthtop Harbor, is all about. You have not a clue how to manage a budget, and that shows by your “offer”….You, and those like you are the problem and need to be weeded out.
A teacher like you (and I suspect that you are), at any price, would be overpaid!So take a hike carl, I am finished with you and your blogging…goodbye
Carl, Just post your email here. Remember to format it to somthing like the example below so spammers won’t pick it up. PDonaldson can then replace characters and email you.
Example: lennie [at] educationmatters [dot] com
Lennie
The discussion should not be about if teachers are overpaid or underpaid in Winthrop Harbor, or if army recruits are underpaid in Iraq or doctors are underpaid in West Africa. What motivates individuals to work at a job is between them, their god, and the market place. What should be scrutinized in Winthrop Harbor is the ability of the School board to manage a budget. The budget that they have been administrating has been growing at a very healthy rate in recent years as property along the entire Milwalkee Chicago corridor increases in value with every sign that growth will continue. To even suggest that the rate of taxation be increased in the face of this continued property valuation inflation with resultant increase in taxes is ludicrous. This is not about what teachers are worth or not worth, this is about public accountability and about requiring public officials to administer funds in a manner appropriate and in accordance with a budget. This budget is appropriate to the income levels of the community and has been consistently affirmed by the vote of the people of Winthrop harbor.
To compare funding levels of school districts that are wealthy with school districts that are less wealthy is patently silly due to the cost of housing and cost of living discrepancies between wealthy and less wealthy districts that help to compensate for relative pay discrepancies.
I say do not reward the mismanagement of the school board with a bail out that will allow them to continue their gross mismanagement. If they cannot balance the books and if they disgrace the public trust…. Then throw the bumms out. Vote for responsible government. Vote for accountability…. Vote No!!!
The referendum comittee, who are funding the election, are called the “Citizens for Quality Schools”. It’s members (parents) have written letters to the local papers, attendend recent school board meetings, and village board meetings. Their website is whsd1voteyes.org.
I am a teacher in Winthrop Harbor School District #1. I am a homeowner (therefore a taxpayer) within Winthrop Harbor School District #1. I am the future parent of Winthrop Harbor School District #1 students.
The school board has promised to reinstate cut programs immediately if the emergency referendum passes. That’s the best thing for the kids. Yes, this will probably involve deficit spending, but I’ll address the districts spending habits in moment.
Briefs for the special election were prepared, I believe, by the board of education or other volunteers. The attorney who presented the case worked pro-bono. I can’t remember his name off the top of my head but is a matter of public record and has been mentioned in the News-Sun numerous times.
I do not understand why people with opposing viewpoints, after posting those viewpoints, get pressured into answering “qualifying” questions before they may feel comfortable comment again (I am talking more about others who have commented here more then myself).
I keep hearing about mismanagement and misspending by the school district. Votenotax.org states that “they told the judge they will cut ‘essential instructional services to school children’, no mention of controlling espenses.” I’ve seen similar statements about the district’s spending on this website. However, the district had to prove that the circumstances are beyond their control. This means proving that they’ve been fiscally responsible (cutting $800,000 in the last couple of years). So, they did mention how they have “controlled expenses”. I don’t have any problem with people having a different opinion. I do have a problem, as most of you probably do also, with people given out inaccurate information. If you have any evidence, specific examples, of mismanagement or irresponsible spending by the Winthrop Harbor school district I believe you have a responsibility to share it.
A couple of facts about the WH School District: We have one of the lowest Per Pupil Expenditures for all of lake county(I know we are in the bottom three and are most likely now the lowest), our teacher salaries are below the Lake County average, we have the least number of administrators among comparable elementary school districts in Lake County, more than 75% of our students meet or exceed IL Learning Standards, and we enroll the highest percentage of college prep and advanced placement students in freshman classes of all the feeder districts to Zion-Benton High School.
If people truly believe that teachers are overpaid, then, as much as may I disagree, I respect their opinion. However, I see a great danger in the spread of that opinion. I think that the field of education has missed out on a lot of great teachers because they could not provide a wage, and security, competitive to that of the corporate world or research fields. I also believe that if a district isn’t competitive it runs the risk of becoming a stepping-stone/training-ground for better paying districts. This is my opinion and I believe I’ve earned the right to state it here.
I would like to hear your take Lennie (or anyone else who would like to respond) on this hypothetical situation: Suppose this referendum, and another in the Spring fails. Suppose the district can go on another year on its own, cutting core educational programs of course. Then the state comes in and forces us to consolidate with the Zion elementary district. Property taxes automatically go up (higher than they would if the referendum passed), teacher salaries go up, administrator salaries go up, and the citizens of Winthrop Harbor lose local control of their schools (probably forever).
I believe that I have been polite and respectful in reference to all who have posted on this blog, as well as to all opinions on this matter. I am confident that I will receive the same treatment from others.
Thank you,
Dana
Dana,
Thank you for getting the information about who is paying for the election.
As for your scenario, first I believe you need to prove that the State is going to take over the district. We had the same thing threatened in the spring here in D46 if we did not pass the referendum (Read about it here). It was not true, and we finally had to get a letter from the state to squash the rumor.
Second, I have been reporting what I know from the articles I have seen. I do not control my commenters. This is a free forum if they wish to debate, which I encourage. Only through debate of opposing viewpoints will we find a solution to issues.
Dana, as you are a teacher in the Winthrop Harbor schools, you will be on the receiving end of a certain amount of pressure from the District. I believe at this point there is probably to changing of anyone’s mind regarding the referendum.
Here are some mis-information from your previous comments. “The school board has promised to reinstate cut programs immediately if the emergency referendum passes.” This is blatantly false. The school board as well as the admininstration has made no such promises. As a matter of fact, when I have spoken with representatives from the Winthrop Harbor schools, I have said to them that unless they specifically earmark the money for the reinstatement of cut programs, the taxpayers will think they are going to be hoodwinked yet again, as happened with the “Save the Bee’s” referendum promises. Many of the programs were still dropped, even after that tax increase. But what it was used for was to fund the increases in teacher wages following the renegotiation of a new contract. Many of us will never forget that.
2. Financialy responsibilty is key. It is ridiculous that there is this huge increase in wages toward the end of administrators and teachers emploment so that they can get higher retirement income. THAT is what is causing the financial ruin of the schools in Winthrop Harbor! I recall this happening and the taxpayers can do nothing about it. But they do remember it. It is cronyism at it’s worst, and as another person commented… the bums need to be thrown out. It is irresponsible to the KIDS and the taxpayers.
3. Why was this emergency hearing publicized ?? It was not.
4. Winthrop Harbor taxes have more than doubled in the past several years.
5. A teacher recently wrote in the local newspaper that her students books were in tatters, and they felt dissillusioned and depressed. This teacher’s wages went from $47,000- $59,000 in 3 years! Shame on the schools for calling this an emergency referendum. This teacher should take one week’s salary and
buy new books for her students. That would be something!
PDonaldson, you quoted me in post #54 as saying: “The school board has promised to reinstate cut programs immediately if the emergency referendum passes.†I don’t recall stating that. If I am incorrect, please direct me to the post #.
Yes…you said it…post #52, paragraph 3. Do you know which is correct?
PDonaldson…why do you keep suggesting that the teachers should take personal responsibility for funding the education of your children. Besides the fact that that they already go out of pocket far deeper than you would ever imagine, why should they throw in if you won’t?
Yes, I realized that last night, my mistake. Thank you for pointing it out. It was very late when I wrote that, but no excuses. However, the district has stated that they will reinstate the cut programs (PE and music) immediately.
Lennie:
You Wrote…
“I do not control my commenters.”
However, your policy reads…
“I reserve the right to delete any post I deem inappropriate.”
Wouldn’t one consider that at least a modicom of “control”?
I would have included this information in my last post, but I wanted to make sure that I got the dates correct. The District stated that they would reinstate the cut programs at both the Winthrop Harbor Board of Trustees meeting on Sept. 6, as well as at the “Mega Event” Sept. 24. They also stated this, in regards to the last two referendums, at all of the several “town hall” style forums held last year.
Comment by “Hi” was deleted because it was inappropriate.
Lisa:
I missed “Hi’s” inappropriate post, however, based on some of “Hi’s” anti-voucher and anti-charter school posts throughout your site (and I reiterate “YOUR”), I’m guessing “Hi” didn’t agree with you…I mean PDonaldson.
PDonaldson Wrote Here in…
Post # 30… Carl… have you been polite, to anyone? Gee, I must have missed that…Anyway, I really don’t give a (edited) if you are polite or not, but ignorance is no excuse, and THAT you need to work on..
Post # 49…A teacher like you (and I suspect that you are), at any price, would be overpaid!So take a hike carl, I am finished with you and your blogging…goodbye
Based on the fact that I suspect PDonaldson is an alias of yours…I mean friend of yours and supports your argument, I suppose you find his posts appropriate.
Lastly, to be accused of being a teacher is one of the highest compliments I am afraid I have not earned. To those of you who teach in our public schools and have to deal with this daily, please accept mine.
Lennie,
I have to agree that PDonaldson’s remarks towards Carl were more of a personal attack and just as inappropriate as (if not more than) Hi’s.
You said: “Only through debate of opposing viewpoints will we find a solution to issues.” I would like to raise the stakes and say; only through civilized debate of opposing viewpoints will we find a solution to issues.
Carl,
This comment from “Hi†had absolutely nothing to do with the subject and was just a snide comment. I deleted it after talking to Lennie and didn’t feel it appropriate to keep it up until Lennie came home. That is why I put my name on it. That is why I deleted your comment about my husband and me following post #61. Just as a reminder, Carl, if we deleted comments that we didn’t agree with then you would have very few comments on this Blog! I also want to thank you for pointing out something that was missed, Carl. I will remove the profanity.
To all… please remember by submitting comments on this site, you are agreeing to the following rules: All profanity will be deleted as I see fit. I reserve the right to delete any post I deem inappropriate.
Dana,
Carl knows I have left many of his personal attacks on this site and that I allow dissenting viewpoints. Hi’s comments had nothing to do with the thread in anyway. The rules I have now are a direct result of Carl’s past comments. I will, however, review all the comments again on this thread later tonight.
So what are you saying Lennie?
Lennie Wrote:
“The rules I have now are a direct result of Carl’s past comments.â€
You will not delete personal attacks against the opposing viewpoint, but if one should step on your toes, you just?
And you think D46.info is biased? HA!
Carl, I am not even sure what your point is. There are many personal attacks by you that I have not deleted. The one comment I deleted before we deleted the last 2 in this thread was a disparaging comment about my wife. You know full well I have been very tolerant of you disparaging me. I did not delete any comments before I added the rules you see when you comment. I have only deleted 3 since.
Carl, If you want to continue this discussion please email me. I will be happy to continue this offline for you or anyone else. This thread needs to get back to the topic of Winthrop Harbor.
Lennie…
I can see you are trying to be diplomatic and polite. Anyway, I really don’t give a (edited) if you are polite or not, but ignorance is no excuse, and THAT you need to work on..
A blog like yours (and I suspect that it’s yours), with any content, would be over rated!So take a hike lennie, I am finished with you and your blogging…goodbye
[...] The cost of the election is being paid for by a group of concerned citizens who raising the money. Comment by DMcCarthy — 9/6/2005 @ 11:01 pm [...]
[...] The referendum comittee, who are funding the election, are called the “Citizens for Quality Schoolsâ€. It’s members (parents) have written letters to the local papers, attendend recent school board meetings, and village board meetings. Their website is whsd1voteyes.org. Comment by dmccarthy — 9/27/2005 @ 10:12 pm [...]