Education Matters US

25 Responses to “District 48 Taxpayers Fed Up With Spending”

1. Lennie, on July 16th, 2005 at 1:55 pm Said:

   Karen Hord from D46.info wrote in response to this article, “Wow… what a surprise! Lennie found another school district to use as an example. Of course, Lennie found a school district that again cannot be compared to D46. I used to live near D48, a rich district… ie Oak Brook shopping center. A district with 550 or so students with spending of over $12,000 per year. We don’t have those dollars available. We have hardly any commercial/industrial dollars available.

   Lennie… To use those comparisons does a disservice to the students in our district. Each component of each similar issue in a district would have to be compared for any comparisons to have validity. The residents of our town should simply be making their decisions about how far they will support the schools based on what we have as our financial base. The state set up going after extra money by referendum in part because they are cowards when it comes to actually addressing the inequities with school funding in the State of Illinois. You want to simply tout wasteful spending elsewhere without giving a valid comparison to wasteful spending here. Many times you have been asked to show us where our district is making those same mistakes you keep touting. Make your comparisons apples to apples instead of apples to oranges. Our children really deserve better!!!!”

   I never tried to compare the size of the district. I was talking about the financial shenanigans taking place before and after a referendum. This happens regardless of district size or revenue of businesses. From your response that this is a rich district, I would have to ask why do they need the referendum in the first place? It’s the same financial trickery prevalent throughout Big Ed.

   Now, for a minute, let’s entertain the notion that you can only compare the same size district. What does that entail to you? Please answer the following questions in regards to that?

   Does that mean only the student population or a certain variance?
   What is that variance?
   Does it mean the same number of schools?
   How about teachers and their experience?
   Is it only the revenue they get?
   Is it only based on the per student expenditures?
   What comparisons will you use next to eliminate a comparison to another district?

   BTW, you still never answered my other question, “I ask you Ms. Hord, Carl and anyone else who wishes to answer, how many districts have to be revealed as financial tricksters before you realize it is a system wide problem? I really would like an answer.”

   Where will you draw the line?

   You have brought up some good points in your other post as well. I quote it below.

   —————- Begin Quote —————
   “The problem with Bruno’s post and with Shawn Oakley’s fight is that they are going after education “bureaucracy”. We in Grayslake are going after a much more basic problem within in our town and how it affects the educational opportunities of our children within.

   Our kids may have art, music & gym back next year. I am happy that they are getting something, but… they are not the full programs our kids deserve. The major benefit in getting these “gut reaction” programs back is that it gives our kids some chances during the school day to be restimulated by getting up and moving somewhere. My child is not into the athletics of gym. He has always enjoyed the arts. In years past we had wonderful programs. Now, we have reduced programs due to limited funding.

   Our district still has absolutely no ability to bring down class sizes. I have been a volunteer in many classrooms over the years. I have seen first hand the difference in the quality of education delivered in a classroom with less kids. Our kids are getting shortchanged with 30 kids in a room.

   Last night, Ed Schroeder really made me mad. He had the audacity to ask the board to continue their path of fiscal responsibility. His example was to ask them to reexamine why D46 has so many kids in the Pre-K program. Why has our district been reduced to this level? Doesn’t every child who deserves the additional early learning help deserve it?

   All of these issues are not the result of educational bureaucracy. We are in trouble because of how the state funds us. We don’t need the Bruno’s of the world trying to lump us in with everyone else. We don’t need to have super programs, but our kids deserve a much better opportunity than they are being afforded. The taxpayers in this district need to look at where we really stand, and even with some programs back, it is not a pretty sight.”
   —————- End Quote —————

   What exactly, do the ‘kids deserve’, and where is proof that they aren’t getting it?

   Who is to say that your “needs” must be funded by the entire district?

   Why should your wish to have an “art” curriculum mean that every taxpayer in D46 has to pay for an “art” program?

   This question has a great answer. It’s School Choice. It we get the state to fund the child instead of the district, you could choose a school that provided art. Other schools could provide gym. You get to choose the school you want that suits your child’s needs. What a concept. This could even reduce the cost of education by eliminating duplication of services at all schools.

   Second, another way to do this is privately. The community college system and the park districts provide many courses for children. This way, you pay for what is most important for your child. This gives you more control instead of the district.

   Karen asks, “Why has our district been reduced to this level?” It has been reduced to this level because of the bureaucracy.

   Karen asks, “Doesn’t every child who deserves the additional early learning help deserve it?” I will assume you meant needs the help. Does this mean Pre-K be mandated? I think not. I paid for Pre-K for both of my children. That should not be the responsibility of the state. In regards to the bureaucracy of schools, Pre-K is a mandated bureaucracy. Did you know that for some children with special needs to get help they have to attend the full program instead of just receiving the treatment they need? This could save a lot of money if it wasn’t mandated. Again, it is the bureaucracy that you don’t seem to believe exists here.

   Here are a few more questions for you.

   Why should the State be able to “mandate” anything like class size or curricula?
   Who would argue that the State knows better than the parents?
   Should the State have the right to “impose their values” on the parents?

   Bureaucracy is in District 46 whether you see it or not. The districts are masters at hiding it through the language of unfunded mandates. You want to fix our districts schools, lobby to reduce the mandates by the state. Look at the list of unfunded mandates in this earlier post. How many of those are frivolous to you? How many are jobs for parents and not the school system?

   Ed, thank you for your call for fiscal responsibility. It is badly needed now more than ever. We as citizens as well as the school board need to think about our responsibilities in teaching our children. It is our job to see that they are educated, not the state. We need to make sure taxpayer money gets spent wisely and not frivolously as in the past. Big Ed is alive and well and will continue to feed on us taxpayers until we can shutdown their bureaucracy. They have to be forced to get back to the real goal of actually educating our kids instead of finding more ways to get money form the taxpayers.

   Drn says, “I agreed with one statistic that Mary Jane Lucas made at the beginning of the school board meeting the other night-in 1990, we had 5,000 people in Grayslake. In less than 15 years, we hve 22,000 people. This overpopulation is not D46’s fault-it is the Village of Grayslake, Hainesville and Round Lake’s leadership that did not take in more impact fees. Just look at what is happening in Fox Lake with Big Hollow and the inequity of impact fees between them and Fremon School district. As far as children with special needs-there are many reasons for that-genetic, environmental, medical reasons. Special needs children are there and isn’t it wonderful that we don’t live in 1950 where children at that time might not have been able to live at home, that children aren’t branded a “dunce” because they mix their letters up, or become juvenile delinquents because they are too wild and hard to handle. Education has evolved. I just wish the anti-tax people could see the wonderful things that many passionate eduactors and leaders do for the community that they serve.”

   The population statistics you site above can be solved by funding the child and not the district. A funding the child method would increase proportional to the population growth that way. You want funding reform, here it is and all without a tax increase. This could wipe out those funding inequities.

   I too am glad special needs kids are educated. My brother is autistic. He was able to graduate high school because of the instruction he received in school. He was not mainstreamed though. He had special classes where teachers could attend to his needs and teach according to his abilities. If he had been mainstreamed, he would not have even come close to graduating if he had been.

   I just wish the pro-referendum people would realize that the “anti-tax” people care about the kids just as much as you do. We are offering suggestions on how to improve the schools without a huge tax increase. You and others seem to dismiss those ideas out of hand because it appears you believe money is the only solution. It would be more helpful if we all try to come together and find solutions. The referendum has failed 4 times now. We have to be realistic and work with what we have.

   Again, I and others suggest help us get legislation passed that “funds the child and not the district”. This solves the need we have here in District 46 and other fast growing districts. It would in all likelihood eliminate the need for a referendum for Madrona. The money would come from the State and again this would not require a tax increase either by the State or a referendum.

2. Karen Hord, on July 16th, 2005 at 3:05 pm Said:

   Your last statement says it all. I wouldn’t object to funding to the district as long as the funds were equally distributed throughout the state, or at least like county areas where cost of living is the same. In our district, that is not the case because of the way that the state funds education. Our kids deserve an equal educational opportunity. All of our kids should have opportunities to have art, music and gym programs. My child may like art & music, but he needs gym for physical fitness. If he was only into athletics, I would want him exposed to art and music, as well. To complain about the pre-k program, a mandated program, is ridiculous. Your complaints need to be against the state. Until you (or we because we are certainly crying out for state change) can get the state to make the changes that they need to, don’t attack our programs and our expenditures, especially on mandated levels. Don’t lump us with the districts that have money to waste. We don’t because there isn’t anything to waste. Until you can pinpoint an exact problem in D46, stop attacking D46 as if it’s the problem.

3. Lennie, on July 16th, 2005 at 3:55 pm Said:

   Karen said, “I wouldn’t object to funding to the district as long as the funds were equally distributed throughout the state”.

   Good, we can agree on this point. If every child in the state is appropriated an equal amount of money no matter where they live in the state and could use to attend the school of the parents choosing, that would be an acceptable funding solution, correct?

   Karen said, “All of our kids should have opportunities to have art, music and gym programs.”

   I can agree with this point as well. My question though, is should every taxpayer be required to pay for this activity or should it be the responsibility of the parent to choose and pay for the programs they want their child to attend?

   Karen said, “To complain about the pre-k program, a mandated program, is ridiculous. Your complaints need to be against the state. Until you (or we because we are certainly crying out for state change) can get the state to make the changes that they need to, don’t attack our programs and our expenditures, especially on mandated levels. Don’t lump us with the districts that have money to waste. We don’t because there isn’t anything to waste. Until you can pinpoint an exact problem in D46, stop attacking D46 as if it’s the problem.”

   On this we disagree. The mandated programs affect D46 and every other district in the State. My focus has to be on this as well because if the parents in D46 and all other districts stood and and said enough is enough to both Big Ed and the State you would see changes at the State level. There has to be an outrage by enough parents to force this change. Until parents stand up to Big Ed and tell the State to stop passing these unfunded mandates, btw that are moslty introduced and supported by Big Ed, then they won’t.

   If all the parents focus on is passing referendums and getting huge tax increases passed, the State has no reason to change. Status quo is good for them because they don’t have to make the hard choices. If want the mandates stopped, let’s work together. Both the yes and no voters coming together can force a change. You’ll see if Big Ed is really for the kids or themselves. Try it, talk to one of them about funding the child and watch their reaction.

   As for attacking D46. I have already pointed out many things wrong here. I will continue to do so until those issues are resolved and no longer occur.

4. Karen Hord, on July 16th, 2005 at 6:10 pm Said:

   To say we have to “start” attacking the problems at the state level is ridiculous. I have worked on committees since the early 1990’s doing just that. Grayslake D46 has struggled for years because of the inequities. You tell us that if enough people complain, something will change. What a crock! Many of us have been screaming out for years about the problem, especially in our district. Change is needed, but not a given. Our lawmakers tend to be cowards on the issue of taxation, and this is a basic taxation problem. Until the needed change takes place, we have kids to educate. We must not turn our backs on them because it will cost us money. The majority of people that now reside in our district have lived here for less than 15 years. All of these problems were in place when they moved in. By moving in, shouldn’t they have accepted that their support was going to be needed to fund education? My chld and the children he attends schools with do not deserve to be penalized while the community argues like children and the state plays chicken. We will continue to fight for change at the state level. We accept that we must do that. While we wage our battle, we are willing to walk the talk of providing good education by supporting it with our tax dollars as necessary.

   As for the comments about whether the community should fund art, music & gym… without question. These programs are an integral part of learning. They help to stimulate the brain for the learning of the basics as well. Step inside a school that has a “full” program of specials and you see kids excited about the educational process in so many different ways. The arts & gym are ways of getting children hooked on school. That filters into the classroom for all of the basics as well… the good old reading, writing & arithmetic.

5. Lennie, on July 16th, 2005 at 7:57 pm Said:

   Karen said, “Change is needed, but not a given. Our lawmakers tend to be cowards on the issue of taxation, and this is a basic taxation problem.”

   And therein lies the problem. You have been screaming for money at the State level and the only way you see to do that is to raise taxes. I have made a suggestion that solves the equity problem, gives D46 the money to educate all the kids, and all without a tax increase. If you can’t get the State to raise taxes after 15 years, wouldn’t it make more sense to provide a solution that does not cause a tax increase and fixes the problems? Of course it does. That is what I am suggesting and you revert back to “we need more taxes.”

   This is the reaction I would have expected from an entrenched Administrator or Union Rep.

6. Karen Hord, on July 16th, 2005 at 8:59 pm Said:

   It is not necessarily a matter of raising taxes, but of distributing them so that parity exists. Since the majority of districts do not face our financial difficulties, they would fight giving us a bigger slice of the pot. Redistribution of commercial and industrial taxes into an equally divided pot would be nice, but again the have’s aren’t going to willingly give up the fight. You want us to stop asking for more money, but our finances are in a desperate state because of issues that are not in the control of our school district. If you think that changing the system is easy, state your plan. But… remember… my kid and all others deserve an equal education now… not when legislation gets changed… but now! Until such changes are instituted, I will continue to support what is necessary to bring that about. It may take a bigger chunk of the pie than I am happy with. I will continue to understand that there are those who really cannot support education financially, while I continue to believe that most of them do value education itself. I just accept that we do not have a choice. If we want a workforce who will be our support in later years, we better educate them now.

   As for the entrenched administrator or union rep comment… yeah, right. Proviso West High School class of 1971. As Cheryl Greenman would say, I don’t have what it takes to be the admin and I’ve never worked in a union shop or field. Supporting education for education’s sake… that’s me.

7. Lisa Jarratt, on July 16th, 2005 at 9:18 pm Said:

   Karen said, “We must not turn our backs on them because it will cost us money. As for the comments about whether the community should fund art, music & gym… without question. These programs are an integral part of learning. They help to stimulate the brain for the learning of the basics as well.”

   * I totally agree with you that we shouldn’t turn our back on our children just because it will cost us money. (We haven’t because our children’s education cost us our taxes and the cost of home schooling) In a public school setting, if we want them to have specials then we as parents should provide that for them. But I don’t believe that the 60 year old widow or the childless couple down the street needs to pay for yours or my child’s specials. Art… is very important to me, Karen. So I don’t say this lightly. I know the benefits of creativity and expression. But just as gym isn’t your child’s bag, art may not be someone else’s. Let’s face it, (sorry Lennie), all of his years in required public school-art didn’t make Lennie a good artist. I’m not sure he even enjoyed it. It also didn’t land him his jobs. Science, Math, Language, etc… did. Unless you go into these professions (Art, PE, and Music) it becomes a hobby later in life. You know, as you do with your child, what their passion is and you would nurture it in anyway you possibly could. If your child is really wonderful at it, public school-art is for all children whether they like it or not. So it is a one-size-fits-all classroom. I understand that and I can appreciate that gravity. Your child may benefit from extra classes in art! If you are going to pay for his/her passion, then why supply it in public school when that money could be spent else where. It is a fact that creativity and expression can be expressed in all kinds of forms. My creativity doesn’t stop at art.

   Karen writes: “Step inside a school that has a “full” program of specials and you see kids excited about the educational process in so many different ways. The arts & gym are ways of getting children hooked on school.”

   * Karen, it just doesn’t seem like any of you are looking at the obvious here. Art, music, and PE are back! This wasn’t even possible with the old administration and board. (Please spare me with the 4 that are there now that were the on the old board thing. You know what I mean) Yes, they are cut and not “full”. I would bet if they had more time than 2 months getting their hands dirty WITHIN the board to make some decisions on bringing back those programs, they may have found a way to make it happen to the full extent. I get the feeling that nothing is going to be right when it comes to this newer school board. I don’t believe they said in any of their meetings that this was going to be a piece of cake! Even if they passed a referendum (which is all some of you have been whining about for four failed referendums now, that wouldn’t be right. I just don’t understand this mentality. If the community doesn’t want it, you work with what you got…NOW! Just like what we do with our budgets at home. Crying to our boss and getting mad at him because he wouldn’t give us more money won’t work. It would probably get us fired!

   You also talked about the PE, art, and gym as getting kids hooked on school and it filters through to regular education. I’m not trying to pick but this sounds really bad to me. If a child dislikes school so much that art, PE, or music is the thing that is keeping them there, then something is wrong. I think someone needs to look into that. If they need a break from studying there is recess. Do they have recess at d46?

   One more point I would like to make. If they had the budget to add on the extras, could they have used that money to lower some of the class sizes?

   Ok, one more thing. You may not like us at all, but I would like to thank you personally for posting and replying to our e-mails.

8. Lennie, on July 16th, 2005 at 9:40 pm Said:

   Karen Quote 1: “Our lawmakers tend to be cowards on the issue of taxation, and this is a basic taxation problem.”
   Karen Quote 2: “It is not necessarily a matter of raising taxes”

   So which is statement is correct? Again, I gave you a suggestion that does not raise taxes and you said id was a taxation problem. I talk about it again and you so it/s not necessarily about raising taxes. You can’t have it both ways.

   Let’s look at your argument, “Since the majority of districts do not face our financial difficulties, they would fight giving us a bigger slice of the pot”. Before the referendum, I kept hearing how 80% of the districts had the exact same problem as we did. I’ll have to try and find out who, but it was prevalent on the message board. Now, you’re saying it’s only a few. I ask, which is it, a few or the majority that face the same problems we do?

   I really think you are confusing subjects here. I am not talking about property tax redistribution. I am talking about the State funding. If a district wants to supplement with property taxes, that is their right in a democracy. The State allocates money to each district now and according to many arguments before the referendum, it was stated over and over again the current distribution hurts fast growing districts. Funding the child fixes that because the money goes with the child directly to whatever school they are in. The so called “rich districts” should love this plan too, It would mean more money for them. Why you ask? Well, since their schools are so desirable, they would attract more students and thus more money.

   The people that will fight this the most will be those who work for the Governemnt/Education complex. The higher up, the harder they will fight.

9. Lennie, on July 16th, 2005 at 9:50 pm Said:

   Karen,

   I’m sorry about being so direct. I just thought it was the best and fastest approach to get the discussion moving toward an agreement that can be worked on.

   I am also sorry about the Admin/Union line. I had gone back and removed it, but then you posted about it. So, I thought I should put it back to make sure everyone and you knew what was said.

   Lennie

10. Karen Hord, on July 17th, 2005 at 12:09 pm Said:

    One last post… Yes, many districts are starting to get into financial trouble because of how the state funds education. When I said that most districts do not face our difficulties, I meant it. D46 is in extreme difficulty because of its lack of commercial/industrial to help offset the cost to the residents. Most districts are not facing our difficulties.

    As for the funding/taxation issue… it is somewhat one & the same. To get change at the state level, which is needed, is going to take courage by our state lawmakers. Our local lawmaker, Rep. Churchill, is one of the biggest cowards. It is incomprehensible that he refuses to acknowledge that the problem in D46 begins at the state level.

    As for the arts in school… They are not extras to be paid for separately by individuals. They are part of a well rounded education that most definitely belong in the curriculum. They were part of the school day back in the 50’s and 60’s for me. I stand by my statement that they are an integral part of the school day. What’s with the idea of putting in extra recess time? That’s really educational isn’t it? For many of us, art/music are things we have supplemented in our kids lives. Talk to a member of the band boosters, or parents of students in band/orchestra programs, and find out just how great a positive impact the programs had on their kids.

    I repeat… I will continue to support public education to a full level. I will continue to fight for public education to be funded equally across the board. I know that we are fortunate as a family to be able to give extra assistance to our kid, but I have seen the negative impact on too many children who are not receiving the help they need at school to offset what they are not getting in support at home. I feel it is my obligation as a resident of this earth to see that all children are treated equally with mine. I have been at the bottom financially recently. We had 2+ years of unempolyment to deal with. Sacrificing education never was an acceptable issue in house then, you won’t convince me that it’s ok now.

11. Lennie, on July 17th, 2005 at 3:27 pm Said:

    Noone is trying to convince you to sacrifice education. That seems to be the crux of the problem in relationships here in D46. One side says, “if you don’t pay more for public schools, then are against the kids.” The other side, is saying, “wait a minute, we need fiscal repsonsibility. There is a way we can all get the kids educated without forcing everyone to pay for it.” The negativity and divisiveness in this community will continue until everyone can finally see that both sides are trying help education, and not sacrifice the needs of the children.

    As for Rep. Churchill, I don’t believe he is a coward. He is a politician who represents the entire district. When the district overwhelmingly defeats the candidates for BOE that supported a tax increase and defeats 4 straight referndums, he is voting according to what he says as the meesage coming from the people of this district. That is, “No new taxes!” When we give him a solution that does not require a tax increase, I feel fairly confident that he would support that.

12. Lisa Jarratt, on July 17th, 2005 at 4:43 pm Said:

    Karen said: “What’s with the idea of putting in extra recess time?”

    That’s not what I said. I said if they need a break from the studies, recess is an energy release to give them that break. Play has been proven to be very educational. Ask a professional if you don’t believe me. I think that recess, in most cases, is going out and running, playing with equipment, and a ball here or there too. What would happen if you gave children blocks or sidewalk chalk? How about bubbles or oatmeal boxes for drums? How about an organized game of kickball and have a regular scheduled activity like these each day? Please don’t say that it requires more money because we all know that playground help costs much less than teachers. Even then, teachers can trade off playground duty. You may think that these are all cheap ideas, but creativity doesn’t have to be expensive, just creative. Then there is always unorganized play that is always an option. No, that doesn’t teach technique or skill, but it is the same creative outlet that is supposed to be helping the children to do better in regular education. (That’s where we as parents come in to give them lessons that they have passion for)

    Here is another idea. Band is already a pay as you go… what if art classes and PE was that also? We had something called mini-courses in the 70’s. It was a scheduled class that a student got to choose from for 45minutes, I believe. There was a small fee and it was 4 quarter/5 weeks long each. The teacher got a chance to teach something else to different students so it was refreshing to them. Sorry, we are talking along time ago! It’s a strain to remember all the details. But as you see, even now, I remember them and thought fondly of them. That’s what we want, right, to impact a child for life with school?

    The thing is, you and others may see all of this by being ridiculous, but you are not coming up with ways to make these kind and other options, to make this all work. It truly would be a test of accomplishment by this community and an example for other communities, how to do it within a budget. It seems to be the money, or NOTHING with some of this community. Nobody likes a child when they want what they want, when they want it, no matter what. No one likes an adult like that either. Sometimes the answer is no to a child, even if they want it soooo bad! Your answer is no to the referendum and more taxation, even if you want it really bad. We would hope to teach our children flexibility, reason, and that you can’t have everything you want all the time. Blaming Mr. Churchill is not going to get you anywhere. It is the feeling of most of this community.

    Karen said: “I know that we are fortunate as a family to be able to give extra assistance to our kid, but I have seen the negative impact on too many children who are not receiving the help they need at school to offset what they are not getting in support at home. I feel it is my obligation as a resident of this earth to see that all children are treated equally with mine.”

    Lennie & I feel that it is important to help the children of this community too. That is why (even though we have not had our children in THIS public school system) when we learned that they were taking away programs in this district because of money problems, it bothered us. But it was when we started getting all of this well organized, expensive mail about getting more money for our kids because if we cared we would vote yes, that we got INVOLVED. I don’t think either you or I would disagree that we are (You, Lennie & I) are trying to help. If you do, I feel bad for you. Because something much larger is at work in you.

    I would like to say that I am willing to help the children, but not at the expense of taking the parents rights away. If they choose not to have their children in extra activities, then it is their choice as the child’s parents to say so. If they don’t because of finances… #1- I would ask why they live in a community that is very expensive? (Please don’t compare with Oakbrook or someplace like that. It is expensive to live here.) #2- Have you asked for financial assistance? #3- Are you willing to give up some things so that your child can have those lessons? These are very general questions that may not hit every excuse, but most of the time I bet it would.

13. Karen Hord, on July 17th, 2005 at 5:58 pm Said:

    There are already kids who can’t participate in the band program because they can’t afford it. Is that right? There are kids who are denied the opportunity because they can’t afford it. Our whole D46 community does not live in an affluent town. There are parts of our district where the housing is dirt cheap compared to a lot of Lake County. We do have families sharing housing in our district to save money. All kids deserve the equal rights.

    One thing I think you are misreading about me is that I am saying that it has to be a taxed solution. The reason I call Rep. Churchill a coward is that he is not looking for a solution to help the children in his district that does not require going to referendum. Remember, that is what the state has given us… the need to go for referendum. Getting mad at us for asking for referendum after referendum is not the answer. Again… it is the choice that the state has given us. Something has to change. We both agree on that. The change has to take place at the state level. That is Mr. Churchill’s turf… yes, he needs to start working for us. Until then, and remember I have worked on committees begging for a change for years, I will support the referedums as needed. The state has given us no other choice.

    One additional point was made earlier that I didn’t respond to… The one about getting our programs back without referedum. Don’t you think the money saved last year without the programs was combined with funds due the next year to come up with enough. The staff and many parents are still very legitimately concerned about the sustainability of these programs. Having the programs come and go is not the answer. Class size was mentioned, also. If only we could bring down the class sizes. I have been complaining of that issue for a few years now. Class sizes are way too big. Kids are getting left behind specifically because class sizes are negatively impacting how well teachers can respond to so many more kids with so many more needs. I am not the only one asking for change on this issue. Unfortunately, class size is an expensive need. At least 1 more teacher would be needed per grade level per K-4 building. MS, Frederick and probably Prairieview, too, would probably need at least 2 more teachers per grade level. The other problem would be actual classroom space to accomodate all these additional teachers. Right now, this board is nickel and dimeing everything. The Woodview addition is in danger. Unfortunately, we will need the space before Madronna is ready. Of course, we don’t even have any guarantees that we will be able to fund Madronna anyways, do we? Our problems are massive. We do not have the tax base to support the student population we now have, much less in the next year or two. Until you come up with workable answers to the districts total financial needs, don’t simply highlight what little they can do. The sale of Lakeview may have given a little time, and a few more options, but all of our kids needs are not being met. The needs will not be met as things stand. I don’t care how much micro managing this board does. They will not be able to put our kids on that equal footing they deserve.

14. Lisa Jarratt, on July 17th, 2005 at 9:51 pm Said:

    Karen said: “There are already kids who can’t participate in the band program because they can’t afford it. Is that right?”

    Ok… I ask again… #1- Have you asked for financial assistance? #2- Are you willing to give up some things so that your child can have those lessons? The school now has a pay as you go program, right? I did not own an instrument. The school had a loaner French horn for me to play in 4th grade. I quit, unfortunately, but a lot of those places that rent out instruments have rent to own or let a band have loaners such as I did for no cost. How willing are the parents to go to get an instrument for their child? Swallowing some pride sometimes is all it takes. No one should ever be looked down on because they don’t have a lot of extra money. I’ve found, in the past, that the person with the problem has been me. No one thought less of me, and they went out of their way to help me. Are they asking around or have then been told that they just can’t afford it. Do you know for certain that there is NO WAY for them? We found a way, but it took time and energy. If one person doesn’t have options, then they may know of someone who does. Karen, if you are serious about wanting ALL kids to have the same options for playing an instrument, you could be a one woman committee in finding instruments for “those children” that want to but can’t. Please don’t say there aren’t options because I know that there are.

    Karen said: “Don’t you think the money saved last year without the programs was combined with funds due the next year to come up with enough.”

    The programs were taken away because of finances. When the parents were asking what they needed to do to get the programs back to that it should have been answered, go to the districts bank. It’s there and we are saving money by not having these programs. That is unacceptable to me, and I believe it is for many other people. Karen, let’s be fair. You and I are not on the school board. We are not little flies on the wall listening and checking out every little move and thought they make. It would not be fair of you or anyone who does not know their plans to sustain the programs. THEY agree that it would not be good to give, just to take away. I don’t think that is neither their intention nor their plan. This is an argument that is the same old, same old without any merit or facts. The only thing it accomplishes is getting an agenda of having people getting mad at them instead of giving them credit. It tries to distract from the good that they have done and tries to make the past board look good. This is a new board, let the old board go. They have made tremendous progress and I think that they need to be given credit where credit IS due.

    Karen said: “Unfortunately, class size is an expensive need. At least 1 more teacher would be needed per grade level per K-4 building. MS, Frederick and probably Prairieview, too, would probably need at least 2 more teachers per grade level.”

    Karen, I simply need facts here. I believe this to be EXTREMELY exaggerated. We need numbers not unsubstantiated talk. I heard of one class in Prarieview that had 40 students, but I haven’t heard of anymore. I understand that this was taking place in the 2004-2005 school years. Was the board at that time made aware of it? What did they do Karen? What are the expected numbers for this year?

    I would have a suggestion IF there is an elevated teacher/student ratio. Student teachers and/or mixed classes. Children have done very well in mixed classes. I was in one. We seem to have been from the same era. Were you in one? The public school that we left, was just going to do that with there 5/6th graders. It was very cost effective. Also… I remember having a student teacher in maybe 5 grades when I was growing up. The kids and student teachers build quite a bond. It was always sad to see them go.

    As far as Mr. Churchill goes, I think you are wrong about him. I think if you were to be mad at anyone it should be Blago and the Chicago democrats. They are running the state right now. I think that the school money is being used else where. There is money that the schools could have that doesn’t need a referendum or more taxes. You can speak to him about that by voting him out next year.

    Karen, I want you to realize where your real complaints lie. It was under another school boards watch. Your programs were taken away by that school board. Those student/teacher ratios were under that school board. The current school board is trying to mend the old wounds and what have they done? Conservatively given you back most of your programs. This was done in 2 months. Now, given time, what else can they accomplish? You say that you need all of this NOW! Well, that desperation is because of the old, not the new. I hope this last paragraph really wakes you up from the trance that you are in. It is a reality check.

15. Karen Hord, on July 17th, 2005 at 11:30 pm Said:

    I deal in realities, not trances. Sometimes you make really ridiculous statements. Number one… I am not living with the past board in mind. I have lived here for 18 years and I have 18 years of experience that I base my decisions on. The need for smaller class sizes is not overblown. I have been in the classrooms and I know what a major difference it makes to keep the class sizes down. We may have lived in the same era… I don’t know. I do know that, yes, we got by. I do know that getting by meant not striving to be the best. It meant large classes and teachers who only taught to part of the classes because of it. I have witnessed first hand on a weekly basis what a smaller class can do and what a larger class cannot. I have seen kids in 3rd grade who could not read a math story problem on their own to take a test. I saw too many kids not getting their homework in. We do not live in an ideal world where all children have attentive parents at home. There are many kids dependent on the extra help in the classroom. Extra kids makes the extra help not as readily available. I have been in classrooms where there are student teachers. The student teachers and parent volunteers did not stop the need for “Johnny, please sit. Suzy, do this. Sarah, do that.” So much extra wasted time. Wasted time that should be spent simply teaching.

    When you think that I am not giving the new board credit… get real. I am happy that some things are back, but they are partial some things. You cannot dismiss the fact that if the last board had spent money last year on these programs, the current board wouldn’t have it available this year. The two boards are tied by history if nothing else. I will continue to be concerned with what I see. I will continue to be concerned with whether or not anything is sustainable. History teaches us to be cautious. History of this district and this state tells us to be concerned.

    I don’t believe that Blagojevich is the problem. The problem with the state and educational funding has been there for years. The problem partially lies in the questions put forth to the populace. Sen. Geo-Karis stated that her constituents are not for educational reform at this time… Hey, Adeline… We are your constinuents, and we are crying out for change! Our reps need to ask whether or not we feel that education should be funded more equitably. Maybe the answer would be different from the question they always ask. You know… the one about whether or not we should raise taxes to do so. It is our reps responsibility to find out how to bring about the equality.

16. Lennie, on July 18th, 2005 at 7:35 am Said:

    Karen, I am asking the same questions Lisa asked last night.

    1. What are this past year’s class size at each of the schools?
    2. What is the expected class size this upcoming year?
    3. What student/teacher ratio would satisfy you? 25 to 1? 20 to 1? 15 to 1? 10 to 1? maybe even 2 to 1 or 1 to 1? Oh wait, sorry that’s called homeschooling.
    4. Should the class size be the same for all grades or graduated up each year?

    Until you can provide some context here your argument is meaningless Edu-Babble.

    Karen said, “Sen. Geo-Karis stated that her constituents are not for educational reform at this time… Hey, Adeline… We are your constinuents, and we are crying out for change!”

    I remember you made this comment right after the day in Illinois in support of HB750. Sorry Karen, but that is asking for more taxes (Funding Reform) and not education reform. Besides, if Geo-Karis looks at the school referendums that continually get defeated in her district, she would no want to raise taxes. She gets more votes for not raising them.

    Again, I will ask you Karen, if a solution is provided that will provide each child the same funding from the state, without a tax increase, would you work to support this change? Would you convince others to do the same?

17. Karen Hord, on July 18th, 2005 at 5:17 pm Said:

    If the current funds are reallocated it is funding reform, not necessarily tax reform. You just want to accuse someone of the wrong things.

    Class sizes last year were too high. Period. Woodview’s 4th grade was fortunate that its classes were comprised of 24=- kids, though 2/3’s of each class has been boys for the last couple of years and that made 24 seem higher. The class sizes in the other schools at the 4th grade level were a minimum of 29. The lower grades at Woodview were also 28+. The word out of the Middle School from a student there is that she was in some classes of 35. As for optimal size… a ratio of 20-1 tops for K-1. 2-4… 22 kids. 5-6… 25 kids. 7-8… 28 kids. And those are by no means ideal class sizes. Sometimes the makeup of an individual class at these ratios is still to high. My grandson’s 3rd grade class of 16 boys and 8 girls was out of control. I watched too many kids struggle for most of the year. Kids sat all kinds of ways in their chairs, a good portion of them paying no real attention. It took a new teacher and a couple of reading specialists on a fairly constant basis to restore control. That took over a month to start and 2 months to more fully accomplish. By then it was March. How much educational time was lost for all because of constant disruptions. It was the one classroom I have ever volunteered in where I was part of the discipline process during the school day. Does a smaller class size automatically mean that a teacher without control would be helped? Not necessarily, but having one extra section does mean that the kids that do need a little “closer” control are spread out a little thinner. It is an unfortunate fact that a lot of kids are not getting set the expectations at home that they are to behave a certain way at school. They are not getting homework turned in. No one at home is seeing that they do it. The kids are struggling. The teachers are stretched thin and they are either not putting the effort (often during their evenings) into contacting the homes. It becomes a circle that has a negative impact on every child in a class like that.

    Are there many teachers who still get much more out of all their kids yes? Are they too being pushed too far these days in our district? Yes. Ask them. I get the feeling from the posts questioning me that you haven’t set foot in the schools as often as I have. Unfortunately, even if you were to do it today… you would not have previous experience from a few years ago when class sizes were smaller to compare it to.

18. Lennie, on July 18th, 2005 at 7:11 pm Said:

    Karen said, “If the current funds are reallocated it is funding reform, not necessarily tax reform. You just want to accuse someone of the wrong things.”

    I am not sure what exactly you are getting at here. I think it was the funding reform comment I made about Geo-Karis. If I am wrong please correct me. If I am right, then HB 750 was a net tax increase even after the swap with the property taxes.

    Thank you for the class size numbers.

19. Lisa, on July 18th, 2005 at 8:17 pm Said:

    Karen said: “I get the feeling from the posts questioning me that you haven’t set foot in the schools as often as I have.”

    I wanted to answer this one before any of the other points I want to make. Karen… yes, I have set foot in the classroom. I volunteered in every class that my children were in when they went to public, pre-K, or private school. Now I teach my children. The 2003-2004 school years, were my biggest years for volunteering. I was in my children’s classes for a MINIMUM of two days a week. I did a lot of things for them including substitute teach. Before that, I volunteered, even though I had a pre-school child in tote. So… yes ma am, I do know what the school room is like. I forgot to mention that I have family members that are teachers. Public and Private and one other that home schooled like me.

    Karen said: “My grandson’s 3rd grade class of 16 boys and 8 girls was out of control. I watched too many kids struggle for most of the year. Kids sat all kinds of ways in their chairs, a good portion of them paying no real attention. It took a new teacher and a couple of reading specialists on a fairly constant basis to restore control. That took over a month to start and 2 months to more fully accomplish. By then it was March. How much educational time was lost for all because of constant disruptions. Does a smaller class size automatically mean that a teacher without control would be helped? Not necessarily, but having one extra section does mean that the kids that do need a little “closer” control are spread out a little thinner.”

    You have hit on what I think IS the problem!!! It is the discipline. Most class sizes would not be a struggle for any teacher if they were supported by everyone, when a child is out of line! That means the principle, the administration, the school board, the parents, the state and the country. Too many times children are left at the school doors and the teachers are expected to have a state mandated babysitting service. Now please don’t confuse me with saying ALL because I think that the majority of the parents don’t feel this way. Occasionally a teacher actually has a good year with good students. But they know that there is a good chance that next year they won’t be so lucky. (Again, I’ve seen it, I’ve talked to teachers, I know) I really feel for the teacher’s. It can be pure hell to try to get a student that won’t do his/her homework through the year. They are a constant disruption to the class and the teacher’s have tried to no avail to get the parents involved. I feel sorry for the kids who came to learn and for the child who has to act out to get attention. Sometimes these children are VERY bright and are bored silly. Sometimes it’s a cover for a child that doesn’t get it. Either way, they get pushed through a system that says they have to be there and everyone suffers. If anyone is crying out for help it’s those kids, but we just are overly understanding of them or too busy labeling them for life. Don’t get me wrong, other kids are crying out for help in their own ways too… this one is obvious.

    I also want to point out something. (Again, I know this first hand) If a teacher hasn’t maintained some kind of control of his/her class with in the first month (feeling generous here) then they never will. That’s why it took a new teacher and specialists to teach what they missed out on that first+ semester. I feel sorry for your grandson, Karen, because 3rd grade is critical and in those lower grades especially, a bad year can leave lasting damage. He’s lucky to have a grandma(family) who cares.

    As far as class sizes, I think I would like to FOIA that information from last year and hopefully write out that information on this Blog. I would like to talk to real facts here and see where the school is truly at. Thanks for peeking my interest.

20. Karen Hord, on July 18th, 2005 at 10:04 pm Said:

    The discipline problems get mulitplied as the class sizes go up, interruptions to the learning process, so to speak. Sure the parents should step in, but though it has been talked about for years, the parents who need to are not getting the message. One of the other hot topics of discussion during the past year has been teacher mentoring. How criticial this is to the discipline problems as well. But, alas, a money issue again. Strong education begets a strong community. It “takes a village” to raise a child and help the education process along. You want to attack the system. I would rather do what I have to with what the system is giving us while I fight for change. Simply stating that things are wrong over and over doesn’t help the kids now. Especially since I don’t see that you have found a solution that the state is willing to take on either. I repeat, our children need our support now.

21. Lennie, on July 18th, 2005 at 11:17 pm Said:

    I’ve only been working on a solution for a few weeks. Since the end of March I ahve been working to expose the truth to all who will listen. You’ve had a 18 year headstart on the legislation end. Now, again I will repeat by question:

    1. If a solution is provided that will provide each child the same funding from the state, without a tax increase, would you work to support this change?
    2. Would you convince others to do the same?

    These questions can be answered regardless of whether you or I are currently working on a local solution here and now. We must do both, not one or the other.

    One more questions, at anytime during your lobbying the State has a plan not included a tax increase?

22. Karen Hord, on July 19th, 2005 at 7:16 am Said:

    I would support any method that changed funding to be more euqitable. It’s doesn’t have to mean a tax increase if it can be done that way. I don’t believe that will happen. One thing that cannot be dismissed is that as rich a state as Illinois is, it ranks 48 or 49 in school funding. As for convincing others… If it was a plan worthy of my support, yes I would try to convince others.

    Your question about about the lobbying… My basic job when I went down there was to let my voice be heard about the inequities. I wanted to legislature to hear the growing ranks that think what is happening to the schools in Illinois is unacceptable. When I went with the group to Springfield in May, it was to go with a group trying to be big enough and loud enough to be heard when we said that something has to be changed. I do find it heartening that our ranks are swelling. Yet, I also find it disheartening. Why? Because our ranks are swelling because many more districts in Illinois are starting to struggle, too.

    One item I had failed to comment on earlier. The discipline problem and the mention of word principal. This is part of why it has to be acknowledged that our administrators are getting stretched thin, too. Fortunately, the assistant prinicipal position was approved at Prairieview, but what was it like this past year? Who can effectively oversee the teachers when stretched so thin. How many times must a principal step in to discipline a child? How many children? Every cutback has ramifications.

23. Lisa, on July 19th, 2005 at 8:10 am Said:

    Karen said: “The discipline problems get mulitplied as the class sizes go up, interruptions to the learning process, so to speak. Sure the parents should step in, but though it has been talked about for years, the parents who need to are not getting the message.”

    But talking about it being multiplied when the numbers go up doesn’t get to the root of the problem. It just means that the problem isn’t getting fixed in the first place.

    I believe the message would get across to the parents if it inconvenienced them. Unfortunately, none of us can MAKE a parent care. It’s a hard fact of life. Unfortunately, most of those children get “lost”. If you start taking away the parents rights, then you also open the door for government controlled families. Thus socialism and what is happening this very day in Germany. You would think that they would have learned the first time around but it’s falling in the same trap. When it comes to government control, we need to ask ourselves if whatever is being proposed will eventually trickle down to me? What seems right isn’t always right. It may help my neighbor’s son now, but could it be argued and enforced later when I don’t agree that a teacher shouldn’t be showing a sex education film to my 5 year old?

    Does this mean that we shouldn’t care about our neighbor’s son? Heaven’s NO! Form a relationship with him and support him personally. Sometimes, that’s all it takes. Let him know that you don’t accept his behavior and when he decides he wants to behave then he is welcome to your house. Let him know that you would like to have him but not like that. That separates the child with his behavior. Karen, there are so many things you could do, NOW, that would contribute to our district. I’ve given you several suggestions that would have an effect, NOW! You could have a homework club at your house that wouldn’t cost anything but time. (Ok, maybe a snack and drink. You know how kids are after school) I’m working on an idea to have my children and I help the public schools this year. I’m excited about it, but I’m also hoping that prejudice against home schooler’s won’t prohibit us from helping. If anyone else is reading this post, you can be a direct help to children, even if you don’t have children in school by volunteering.

24. Karen Hord, on July 19th, 2005 at 5:36 pm Said:

    Socialism? Germany? Why can’t you just take an interest in what’s happening here without comparing our problems to everything else in the world? You’re not looking for solutions. You really appear to be looking at ways to avoid the system we do have to work with. We need to deal with the realities of what actually is happening here. Over and out!

25. Lisa, on July 19th, 2005 at 7:14 pm Said:

    Karen said: “Socialism? Germany? Why can’t you just take an interest in what’s happening here without comparing our problems to everything else in the world?”

    Karen, are we supposed to forget what lead to socialism in Germany? It all seems so innocent in the beginning and winds up taking away rights from everyone. This is NOW happening in Germany, Karen. Government controlled schools are TELLING what the parents are to do with their kids. There is no opting out in their schools and no rights for students or parents. This isn’t a scare tactic , Karen. It’s what can happen when that “village” takes away rights of parents. Don’t be fooled into thinking that it can’t happen here. It already is in this country. My point in bringing up Germany was that what seems to be right for your neighbor NOW, could have lasting effects that may be a precedent for laws in the future that take away parental rights. WE NEED TO BE VERY CAREFUL.

    Karen, you just can’t ignore other districts, other states, other countries, and history and say, “because it isn’t happening here NOW, we don’t need to talk or think about it”. I’ve seen your criticism of my husband on d46.info because he has talked about other districts. He has tried to make it clear that we are not to just trust school boards and administrators because they say so or they make you feel like you don’t know what you are talking about. They need to be made accountable, tell us the truth, and have their books wide open so that all can see them whenever they want. Not get the run around and receive something that you didn’t FOIA. This IS what happened to us in THIS district!!! The expensive stipends happened in OUR district, Karen, and at least two people over on d46.info said it wasn’t happening here. We need to look at everything, Karen, if we are to find a solution. That is the past, present and the potential future. Anyone would tell you that only makes sense. If they can’t see that, then I wouldn’t be taking their advice on anything. They can’t see past their own nose.