Education Matters US

12 Responses to “Sitcks And Stones”

1. carl baker, on April 10th, 2005 at 9:19 pm Said:

   you should cite all the inflamatory crap you posted 1st to inflame these folks and inspire the comments! Gimme some more good stuff like that last story lennie. that’s good, constructive blogging.

2. Cathy, on April 13th, 2005 at 11:59 am Said:

   Dear Lennie,

   What a scary eye opening read. I wonder how many of these people, have studied flat tax rates and how they work, PTELL, the teachers contracts, the school budget, economics, class size issues, school reform, TRS and its debt obligation, funding vs. the quality of education, the teachers unions and their donations to political candidates, the numbers of teachers sending their children to private schools, etc, etc. One only need to read these comments to see that our public school system has been failing Americans for decades.

   Questions to ask oneself. If schools are so great why not allow for school choice? If public schools are so great people will not leave. People fear competition only when they know they will not win.

   Teachers and administrators seem to forget that they work for the people and they are paid by tax dollars.

   The public education system is a monopoly that receives over 500 billion dollars nationwide annually.

   What is the purpose of the union? When unions continue to demand contracts the schools can not afford they will continue to throw their fellow teachers under the tracks for outrageous salary increases with no regard to they very people they are to serve. How many jobs and programs could have been saved if the teachers would have received raises of 3% instead of 6%. A 3% increase would have been over the cost of living. Why do teachers need to bank 340 sick days? If it is really about the children why do fellow teachers allow fellow teachers to lose their jobs? How much is the taxpayer paying for the teacher’s health insurance and their family’s health insurance?

   If a teacher is a good teacher why do they fear pay for performance?

   If you voted yes did you blindly vote yes or did you actually research both sides? You owe it to your children to actually research both sides. It is not fair to leave them with an inadequate system and a terrible tax burden.

   Before I decided to vote no I read both sides of the issues did you?

   The Heartland Institute has a plan to have the school dollars follow a student throughout his K-12 education if any funds are left over those funds could be used towards a child’s college education. For example each child would get 10,000 dollars annually to go to the school of his choice. If a parent sends a child to a private school that only costs 5,000 dollars per year the child could than use the excess 60,000 towards their college education. The teachers union and the school administrators as well as fellow union members will tell you it is a bad idea. How could this be a bad idea? Competition is good and will only improve the education system. They do not want competition because it will put an end to their gravy train and will finally hold schools accountable to actually educate our children.

3. carl baker, on April 13th, 2005 at 3:32 pm Said:

   Dear Cathy:

   A number of interesting and debatable topics. I’m certainly no expert, so let me speak to what I know.

   Teachers and administrators have not forgotten that they are paid by tax dollars. They also know that they DO NOT work for the people; they, like other public servants, work for the officials the people have elected to hire, fire and manage them. And teachers, too, are taxpayers.

   When the community fails to step up to its obligation and provide an education for its children, quite often the attention is turned to the teachers. You see in most districts, the Education Fund which pays teacher’s salaries represents over 50% of a districts operating budget, and as such, people feel the fat must lie there. In our district, it’s already cut to the bone representing just a third of the total budget. By failing to meet its obligation to its children, the community itself has created the need for teachers unions to protect the children and those charged with delivering on the community promise.

   It is not the teachers’ responsibility to fund the programs the community overwhelmingly rejected by means of its no vote. Teacher jobs are lost because the community votes not to fund them. The teachers 5% raise and ability to bank sick days are things that come at a cost in negotiations. What did the teachers give up to win those benefits? How many years did they work without contracts or raises to win the 5%? How many years do they work at sub-standard pay to reach the salary some seem to consider inappropriate? The teachers’ health insurance is a benefit they also negotiate for. It is not for their families; it is based on the cost of an individual policy for the teacher. Anything additional is the sole responsibility of the teacher. Further, the value of that benefit is generously included in the salary figures the community relies on at http://www.thechampion.org. Teachers do not receive a paid dental plan or a company matched 401k; their pension, which they pay into, is in lieu of social security for which they are not eligible, both of which are in jeopardy; and they do not receive stock options or opportunity for advancement. Over 50% have educations at a master’s degree level or beyond and earn a starting salary about 30% less than the average entry level graduate with a bachelor’s degree.

   So if it’s really about the children, why would the community vote overwhelmingly to abandon them? You see, it’s not just about the children; and it’s not just about the teachers. It’s about the community and the people’s responsibility to it.

   Pay for performance is a novel idea; and if I’m not mistaken, it’s the driving force in the industry. If you perform your duty as a teacher, you are paid for your performance. If you don’t perform, or if someone comes along that might perform better, you get RIF’d and are no longer paid for your performance. A teacher is evaluated, coached, reviewed, subjected to requirements for continuing education, and all in an effort to ensure that teachers continue to provide performance worthy of their pay. If a teacher is kept on after they fail to deliver, it is the fault of the administration. Some claim it’s not possible to eliminate a tenured teacher, but nothing could be further from the truth. No, it’s not easy, but that’s why they call the administrator’s job “work”.

   Besides, who really is your child’s 1st and best teacher anyway? Why its you, of course! And if you fail to deliver on that promise and obligation, what makes that the school teachers fault? What if you fail to provide the proper environment for your child to flourish, to send them to school in warm clothes with a full stomach so they’re ready to learn, to provide them with a foundation in English as a first, or even second language so they might understand what’s going on in front of them, or to provide a modicum of discipline so that they might respect the professionals charged with their classroom learning? Who evaluates your performance and the affect it has on the teachers’ ability to deliver a test score? No, you can’t quantify those things. Learning outcomes are based on far more than that a teacher should be held accountable for and the variables are far more than any one could ever consider; let alone put to paper in a performance appraisal. So you see it’s a little different than our world.

   So, that’s what I know. Your other far more interesting topics require greater attention, because those are the things that provide change in the big picture; change in the long term. In the meantime, until 2010, all we asked was that the community make good on its promise locally; while we organize and work hard to learn about, and change, the big picture in the long term.

   And lastly, please remember that 43% of the voting public respected their obligation to carry the burden; they didn’t consider it a terrible one.

4. Lennie, on April 14th, 2005 at 9:14 pm Said:

   Carl,

   Our obligations to our children are to provide them the best education we can. That does not mean we just fork over money to the district without questioning whether it will bring the desired results.

   Most teachers are great people. I do not believe the Teachers’ Unions are protecting the kids. They are protecting themselves. I don’t believe teachers should have the right to strike. The teachers claim to be helping the kids, but a strike hurts the kids.

   “Teachers do not receive a paid dental plan or a company matched 401k; their pension, which they pay into, is in lieu of social security for which they are not eligible, both of which are in jeopardy; and they do not receive stock options or opportunity for advancement.”

   I know lots of work environments where there is no paid dental plan. I have worked at many jobs that do not have matching 401K plans. We pay into Social Security and it is in jeopardy as well. The state was who opted out of Social Security. I would bet that the teachers’ retirement will be much better than what you or I will every receive from Social Security. As far as their retirement system being in trouble, that is the fault of their union. They get written into the contracts a huge pay increase the final year before retirement . This inflates their retirement pay and that is what is bankrupting the sytem. This has been brought up to the unions and it is rejected.

   “Some claim it’s not possible to eliminate a tenured teacher, but nothing could be further from the truth. No, it’s not easy, but that’s why they call the administrator’s job “work”.”

   I know of a teacher still teaching right now in another district who has been know to tie her students down. She is still there waiting for retirement. I’d call that impossible if she is still working.

   “Besides, who really is your child’s 1st and best teacher anyway? Why its you, of course! And if you fail to deliver on that promise and obligation, what makes that the school teachers fault? What if you fail to provide the proper environment for your child to flourish, to send them to school in warm clothes with a full stomach so they’re ready to learn, to provide them with a foundation in English as a first, or even second language so they might understand what’s going on in front of them, or to provide a modicum of discipline so that they might respect the professionals charged with their classroom learning? Who evaluates your performance and the affect it has on the teachers’ ability to deliver a test score? No, you can’t quantify those things. Learning outcomes are based on far more than that a teacher should be held accountable for and the variables are far more than any one could ever consider; let alone put to paper in a performance appraisal. So you see it’s a little different than our world.”

   If we are the best teachers for our kids, then why does education cost so much. I know personally, that my wife and I supplemented evertyhing the public schools taught my child. That is why we pulled them out and homeschool. Teachers need to be able to discipline if the parents won’t. Teachers have a responsibility to teach given a lot of different circumstances. If someone does not know english then they need to be put in a different class to be taught. Teaching at the elementary level is not rocket science. It’s the system that is currently broken and needs to be fixed. Giving them more money is not a responsible thing to do. It’s like throwing money down the well right now. It is our repsonsibility to fix education not perpetuate the mediocrity that currently exists.

   I have seen this plan before at Extreme Wisdom, “Education in IL runs about $8500/student/year. I’ve read your writing. You are motivated and smart. If I gave you 20 1st grade students and $170,000, you would find a way to get a location, a black board, and what ever else you needed, and still have $100,000 to $80,000 left over for yourself.” With a plan like that, I could guarantee you at minimum the same test scores and improved test scores over a couple years. This would be much cheaper than the way the system now works and will provide a better educated child.

5. carl baker, on April 14th, 2005 at 9:59 pm Said:

   you really missed most all the points, lennie. 1st this was an answer to cathy’s post. she claimed there was some sort of “gravey train” with a paid dental plan. there isn’t and that’s all that was meant to be. and that huge pay bump in the last year? it ups the average retirement benefit about $100 per month. yeah, yeah, i know…$100 bucks is $100 bucks. what you didn’t extract from my original piece was the fact that all these “gains” come at a cost in a contract negotiation…what did they give up to get it? blieve me, the TRS is in just as deep of (removed profanity) as social security…nobody is counting on anything right now.

   with regard to tenure, you forgot the first part of the quote…remember context, lennie.
   “If a teacher is kept on after they fail to deliver, it is the fault of the administration.”
   it is possible to eliminate a tenured teacher; it’s just easier to look the other way. happens in every industry…doesn’t make it right. remember the “Peter Principle”?

   now be careful lennie…don’t tell an elementary school teacher that what they do isn’t rocket science; it’s a whole lot more involved than you make it out to be, but that’s neither here nor there. i didn’t say YOU were the best teacher for your kids, i said you were the FIRST best teacher for your kids; it’s your job to set the stage so the teacher can go to work and do their magic. the teacher shouldn’t have to dicipline the child if the parent won’t…THAT’S THE PARENTS JOB!!! besides, they CAN’T dicipline the child; it’s against the law…just call DCFS.

   we used to put ESL kids in a different class to be taught, but that got eliminated, too. many of these ideas you have are great lennie; they just aren’t original and they’ve been phased out with the dollars. so now we’ve got less dollars (you know, the assessed value of my home went up 2 years in a row, so did my taxes, but my D46 taxes went down) and even more services will diminish.

   your last comment? sorry, been there, done that. can’t do it right that cheap. maybe with 3 at home, but not in the communal setting most of us consider traditional.

   and you want to know what’s really rich? the anti-tax 4, well 2 of them anyway, finally got back to us. they’re saying they never said they could restore the programs without a tax increase! so we’re gonna have to have it anyway; we’ll just fall another couple years behind and loose the best teachers in the process.

6. Lennie, on April 14th, 2005 at 10:29 pm Said:

   “(you know, the assessed value of my home went up 2 years in a row, so did my taxes, but my D46 taxes went down) and even more services will diminish.”

   The school still gets more than they reveived last year because they can raise the raise up to their tax cap max. Your rate and thus your actual taxes went down because of the increased property values across the district.

7. carl, on April 15th, 2005 at 6:44 am Said:

   i think the taxes went down because the burden got spread out over more property…more new property…you know, all that new comercial development that increased enrollment by, like, 14% ?

8. Lennie, on April 15th, 2005 at 10:33 pm Said:

   Carl, I will quote you, “who really is your child’s 1st and best teacher anyway?” First and best is different than first best. It obvious parents are the first teacher. Again, “If we are the best teachers for our kids, then why does education cost so much?”

   Second, as far as corporal punishment. It is legal, there are stringent rules behind it. You must be told up front before the school year begins. You must sign a permission form agreeing to it if it becomes necessary. If you don’t agree, it cannot be used. If corporal punishment is at some point deemed necessary, the parent must be contacted by phone again personally explaining the situation and must agree again verbally. No, not all schools even go through this process, but it is an option if the school desires. There may be some other rules on the school side that I am unaware of. I am speaking of a parent whose children attended a school where this porcees was explained to us.

   Sorry, but teaching elementary school is not Rocket Science. Yes, it takes hard work and a lot of patience. It takes good techniques and abilities to work with many different types of kids. But, they are not teaching physics, molecular engineering, laws of thermodynaics, of fluid dynamics necessary for a rocket science course. That is what I meant in case you did not understand. Elementary school is a lot of repetition in many different ways to get kids to learn and remember.

   What I am saying is a lot of these things can be implemented with less dollars than we are spending now, not the other way around.

9. Lennie, on April 15th, 2005 at 10:49 pm Said:

   Carl, “your last comment? sorry, been there, done that. can’t do it right that cheap. maybe with 3 at home, but not in the communal setting most of us consider traditional.”

   On this point I believe you are completely wrong. It can be done much cheaper than is being done now. Most private schools operate on less than $8500 per student. I know I could do it for less. I would love to put together a business plan and get a grant to test this theory. I am convinced it will work and at higher class size levels than public schools currently have.

   Interested in having your kids be test subjects?

10. carl baker, on April 16th, 2005 at 1:43 am Said:

    with you? you’re kidding, right?

11. Lennie, on April 16th, 2005 at 9:26 am Said:

    I’m very serious. I don’t joke around with kids education. I want what is best for them.

12. carl, on April 16th, 2005 at 12:39 pm Said:

    me too. and based on what i’ve seen here, i wouldn’t let my kids be your test subject for all the money in the world. you have no ethics, lennie!